To be really annoyed by friend ignoring our arrangement?

[Huga]

Friend has a long history of staying all day and just not taking the hint to leave. We've not seen much of each other lately and I got a new puppy and she wanted to come see him.

I agreed, she always brings her dog (I have dogs too so not really an issue though hers is a little shit tbh) and the day of getting pup I get a text at 7am!!! saying she was leaving soon so she's not travelling with dog in heat (takes her an hour on bus)

Now because she had such form for not getting the hint and staying till 7pm+ I told her she was welcome to come see pup during the day whilst his kids were at school but we wanted to surprise them with pup alone so could she leave at 3pm before kids come home?

She agreed.

At about 1pm she says 'can't I just stay and see YoungestDs reaction? I really want to see his face etc

I tell her no because she agreed to go home and it's rude to agree to something and then try and double back.

She says it a few more times.

It's getting onto 3pm when I go pick kids up and she's making no move to go.

I'm really pissed off at this point but feel I can't say anything more than I've already said because

A) I was VERY clear that I wanted her to leave
B) she has alot of mental health issues and she's been really mentally ill lately

So 3pm rolls round and I'm livid that she's still here and now I'm just feeling like I 100% don't want her to be involved in puppy reveal out of principle, so I get dogs harness on and tell her I'm going with DH to pick up kids and will surprise them in the car.

She says 'but I wanted to see their faces!!' and I basically ignore her and go.

She leaves about 30 mins after we get home because her dog is being an arse to puppy.

I'm just really fucking annoyed that she came on the promise she would leave at 3pm and I ended up surprising DS on the side of the road rather than at home.

I felt I couldn't say something at the time because she has bipolar an dalot of other issues and anything seems to trigger her going into a downwards spiral and I was quite annoyed so couldn't trust myself to be diplomatic about it.

But now I want to, in a calm manner.

She has form for things like this and puts it down to 'not understanding social ques!

But someone telling you to leave isn't a que, is it? It's quite clear I didn't wnat he involved in that moment!

What do you get out of this friendship?

If you enjoy talking to her etc, I'd echo others and meet in a park with a flask of coffee and a clear exit plan.

This would really annoy me, but when pushed like this my reaction would have 100% have been to tell her she needs to leave. There wouldn't have been any diverting or distracting.

I have an anxiety disorder myself so me telling her she was being rude and I wanted her to leave, firstly via text the previous day and then again several times in person was actually really out of character for me. I usually don't say anything and she ends up there till 9pm.

But I DID say something. And it was quite stressful for me to do so.
So if you knew me you'd understand its not easy for me to just say 'get out' at 3pm.

Especially as she has her own MH issues.

A few years ago I tried to end the friendship and she made a suicide attempt and ended up sectioned for 6 weeks.

I agree. Why didnt you say to her "you need to leave", "No, that wont work for me, its time to go", "No, this is really important to me to do this as a family", "No- its time for you to go" etc.. Thats not rude- she is being rude by not respecting your wishes. It sounds like she kicks up a fuss and you just passively accept it. If you are literally pushing her out the door and she still wont go, thats really quite concerning and is not really a friendship at all- she is controlling you.

I've got no real advice but I just want to sympathise op.

I know someone like this, a relative.

It's all very well for pp to say you should be firm, writing out stuff you should say, and of course that makes sense on paper. But with people like this you can suddenly push them over an edge and then they fall apart and cry and accuse you of not caring about them and it really escalates, and it takes hours to calm them down. If you need to rush off to do school pick up, it's just not worth risking an event like that. Your friend sounds just like my relative.

I'm not saying everyone's advice about boundaries is wrong. I'm just saying it's really not that simple or easy.

I do agree you shouldn't have invited her to see the puppy in the first place - cool the relationship so you're not her main friend. Don't tell her "oh we're having a new puppy next friday" as she'll expect to be invited. Just cool right off.

You can have friends who help with childcare etc at a much lower emotional cost

A few years ago I tried to end the friendship and she made a suicide attempt and ended up sectioned for 6 weeks

This is manipulation, pure and simple. You have every right to end a friendship if you wish and you are not responsible for her mental health. I'm sorry but the more you say about her, the more toxic she sounds.

I’m afraid I couldn’t be doing with that. I’d be giving an ultimatum that if she ignores your requests again, it will be the ruin if of your friendship - which it will. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Better she understands that you mean it and she gets a chance to save the friendship by sticking to your boundaries ,or the alternative is that your resentment grows to the point you want nothing to do with her.

It’s her choice and make that absolutely clear. Tell her how she overstepped today and that if that happens again, you are done. Give it with both barrels, calmly and unemotionally but with steely determination. Make sure she knows you mean it.

A few years ago I tried to end the friendship and she made a suicide attempt and ended up sectioned for 6 weeks.

I'm sorry this happened. But yes this is the exact kind of thing I mean. My relative is the same. She'll also bring up stuff from the distant past, stuff that you still feel guilty about, and twist the knife. Every tiny confrontation becomes an all-encompassing crisis/drama. It becomes easier just never to tell her what I think. We are extremely low contact now (contact less than once a year).

She sodenat have a single other friend.

She now has a girlfriend which means it's been way less intense but I'm still her only friend outside of her relationship.

I'm going to do as people suggest and just see her once a fortnight, outside of my home, at a dog friendly cafe.

You’re being held hostage by her mental health. It’s affecting you and your life, and you’re well within your rights to end this friendship. If you don’t feel able to end it suddenly, then gradually tail things off. Don’t let her in your house again, meet on neutral territory, and gradually reduce the length of those meetings and the frequency.

You shouldn’t have let her win by staying. I’d have pretended I needed something urgent from the pet shop or whatever, or had to pop round someone’s house, etc, etc. Anything to get her out of your house with you. Then you could have walked back via her bus stop and told her she needed to go.

Personally, after her recent behaviour, I’d not be meeting her again. This isn’t friendship, it’s manipulation, and her MH difficulties aren’t an excuse for that.

Meet for picnics in a half way park don't invite her to your house again she isn't a friend friends don't cross boundaries

My relative doesn't have many friends either, and I'm a very close relative so I "ought" to be there for her. But I just couldn't any more. I've got my own family to look after now (and so do you).

You don't have to explain all this to her (in fact I strongly suggest you don't say anything confrontational to her). Just very gradually fade. If she's anything like my relative she will pass on to latching onto someone else.

If you see her every other day, slowly move to once a week. If you usually reply to her messages within the hour, switch to waiting half a day. If she texts with a crisis, just don't "blue tick" it for a few hours, then reply with something breezy "sorry just got this hope it's sorted now". If she accuses you of trying to break up the friendship, deny it and pretend you don't know what she's talking about. Don't share anything about your life "oh we're all good thanks, same old".

I wonder if you've become somewhat co-dependent on her too. It's not healthy by the sound of it. I was once way too close to the relative I mentioned. Shared everything, personal secrets, phoned everyday etc. She's since used everything she knows against me in arguments.

Did she sit in your house, alone, while you went to get the kids? weird.

I'm terrible at leaving, I just can't grasp the internal struggle between the rudeness of just 'leaving someone' and the awkwardness of possibly 'staying to long'.

I much prefer public spaces but even then I panic and have been known to follow someone to the bus stop to say goodbye, its hard to explain the internal struggle even though you know its a bit 'weird'.

I would quite like the whole 'Im leaving to go to get the kids at 3' thing because then I have a deadset time (if you're going out at 3 its like a shop shutting so that means I leave) but things usually aren't that clear cut.

Maybe your friend was just pushing her luck (does happen I'm sure) but
it also sounds like you weren't that clearly firm. You keep saying you
couldn't say anything 'again' but why not its your house. It sounds
like your both just feeling 'awkward' about clear communication on this. You about 'being rude' kicking her out and her about 'being rude' and leaving.

Maybe just be stone cold clear by saying it as you open the door to leave, tell her 'time to go now'. I know wouldn't want someone sat in my house while I'm not there so saying 'I'm going out now so you have to leave... bye' leaves no space for internal turmoil and debate lol.

However if you say something like 'I have to go get the kids now, I'll be back in 20 minutes' it leave us thinking 'are we suppose to wait here for you to get back? it sounds like you expect me to still be here in 20 minutes time, do I sit outside and wait? will you be mad if you get back and I'm gone? god I wish I could go get my shopping done. Can't do it now and leave the ice cream in the car if shes expecting me to come back. I could say my DH needs help with something urgent but then what if she knows I'm lying. She'll figure it out and think shoppings more important to me than our friendship and be hurt' (insane maybe but socializing is bloody hard).

I'm sorry OP after your updates this sounds very difficult for you, nobody should manipulate someone in the way she is doing to you, very unfair. I think you'd be right as you and others say to meet her on neutral ground, as long as you want to continue the friendship at all. It's interesting reading the thread how many of us have friends who overstep boundaries. My friend can be like this, she turned up once for what we both arranged - a quick lunch at mine on her way to visit family for the weekend - only her plans had changed! She didn't tell me this till about two hours after she had been at mine and it clearly hadn't occurred to her that I might have other stuff to do. She stayed till after 10. I had earmarked the evening to do a submission for some freelance work (as well as generally family time and house stuff) which I kept politely reminding her, but to no avail. I possibly missed out on some nice work because of it. It's difficult because she has issues but you can suggest and hint all you like and she bats it away, but start being firm - and she's suddenly super offended. I'm afraid I can't offer much advice as us moving a bit further apart means we don't meet as much as we used to which on the one hand is a shame, but also a bit of a relief. 🙁

Manipulation definitely isn't a symptom of bipolar.

I met a man (friendly) at social events last early autumn a total of maybe five times in a group setting.

He latched onto me and messaged regularly until at least late spring when I had enough of giving polite hints and blocked him.

I hadn't for ages since he seemed depressed and to have some sort of drinking problem. But I wasn't his therapist.

I posted about it on here at the time and the advice was to block. I ended up blocking a few people and have kept them blocked. Improvement.

Manipulation definitely isn't a symptom of bipolar

No, its not. But, there could be duel diagnoses and a personality disorder at play too. Even if not, plenty of people have grown up using manipulation as the only way to get their needs met because they werent allowed to express their needs and/or observed a parental narcissistic behaviour as as role model. So, having Bi Polar disorder doesnt mean a person cannot be manipulative.

Regardless of MH - there are just people who don't get it!
I'd have told her from the off that you had a lunch appointment and so could only see her for the morning. In future if she does come over you need to have something you must get to - dentist/another friend/appointment at school or even that you have to get on with your day! Stand up, show her the door - keep saying that you have xyz to do. She can't take a hint, you've been pretty blunt, now be forceful.

Time to stop having this friend round, and start meeting up on neutral territory.

If she's short on cash, parks and playgrounds are free, and something her dog can come to as well.

Yes, she may very well have various mental health diagnoses, but that doesn't mean everything has to be pandered to her exact whim. You are ALLOWED to say "that doesn't work for me", and tough titties to her.

It doesn't mean OP should have to tolerate it either though.

I’m pleased that your own MH has improved to the point that you DID say something @Huga. I think you can realise that in the long term, having someone who is obviously so dependent on you continually storm through your boundaries is not healthy at all. It’s great for you that she’s got someone else, but you need to establish that you exist as part of your friendship too. While she has someone else in tow, you need to show her how you put yourself and your kids first, and that she isn’t automatically a piece of that pie. If her relationship were to unravel right now, she would be much more intrusive again, so you need to wean off your own as well as her dependence.

Set a timer on your phone-an alarm—for an hour and a half after you meet. Let her know at the start that this is the length of the visit. Remind her in the middle of the event that the end is coming. You can also give her a five minute warning the way you do a toddler “remember in five minutes I will be leaving to go to my next appointment and you will be leaving to do X” Get up when alarm goes off and say firmly “this has been lovely. We will do it again next month! Now I must be going.” Set off at a brisk pace away. If she tries to come with you just get yourself into a cab while reminding her of the “plan” which was that the event was only tea, or only a dog walk.

Respond to her demands “(but I want to see the children’s faces” )or whatever as wishes not commands. “ I know you wish X but we are doing Y That is what works for me.”

Sorry but this is so condescending, she's not a toddler or a puppy.

I understand where you're coming from but I couldn't ever sit there and set a timer on a visit for a friend. That's just insane.

She is bipolar and has BPD. That does explain the behaviour way beyond just being inconsiderate.

You don't know much about BPD do you

Oh, I completely agree.