to think sometimes gentle parenting is taken too far?

[GPgonewrong]

This week I’ve spent a few days with friends, their baby and son who’s almost 4. I have DS who is a few years older.

They gentle parent (which I also do, to an extent) but it means their toddler never hears raised voices, I didn’t ever hear “no”, everything was dealt with through a compromise or sitting down with him. All sounds fine, until you experience the behaviour. He bounced on every single chair and sofa, constantly pulled out furniture, wouldn’t sit down for a meal, eating little bits and buggering off running round, never ate a full meal but fed on demand. He shoved me out of the way several times, complained every time he was explained to why he shouldn’t be doing that, which he shouted back “NO! You can’t say that”. Completely unable to share, always snatching off the other kids, and didn’t say goodbye when we left. He is almost four but still won’t play nicely, instead his idea of play was destructive, throwing things around and knocking things over.

AIBU to think it’s gentle parenting taken too far and no discipline? Or maybe a separate issue?

Yanbu. Gentle parenting often equals spoilt little brat in my experience.

“Do not” is pretty similar to “No”. I agree that asking Dc to consider others is important. However very young Dc don’t get this concept easily. They are me me me people until around 3 plus. Sometimes 4. So they might understand their feelings in detail but possibly not. Why do so many DC have these poor behaviour traits when playing? Mine didn’t.

Louise is throwing toys about on a playdate.

1."Stop that right now you little shit!"

2.Mum grabs her by the arm and smacks her bottom . "WE DO NOT THROW!".

1. "No! Louise! No! Stop that!" Firm voice, mum stare.

1. "Louise , if you do that again we're leaving !" - and they do leave.

1. "Louise come here " - they go off or stay to have a chat about behaviour and throwing

6.Louise no darling." in a simpery voice . "If you do that again I'll x,y,z" - x,y,z never happen

7.Parent ignores or "awww isn't she spirited? She has such great imagination. Who knew you can use toy trucks that way?"

Spot the shit parenting. Spot the gentle parenting. Hint.. they don't overlap.

Absolutely no one has said that you shouldn't explain things to children. I just believe that it should be age appropriate and proportionate to the situation, which I don't think a lot of these monologues about feelings every time the child has the slightest disappointment are. If I'm honest, I think they're much more for the benefit of the parent than the child.

I know several people like this and they really don't see they are doing their children a massive disservice in life.

I also think gentle parenting doesn't mean you don't have firm boundaries - it's how you deal with it when the boundaries are crossed that can be more gentle, but should still have logical consequences etc.

If we don't teach our kids the word NO, then how are we supposed to teach them about consent?????

I dread these kids becoming adults. I can see so much sexual assault happening.

Exactly - this is how Brene Brown couched it to Russell Brand when he said he felt bad saying no to his daughter. She said if your dd doesn’t learn the word no, what will she draw on when she’s 16 and in the backseat of her boyfriend’s car? Definitely putting it in a context RB would understand!

It teaches really well about consent because it is actively respectful of children's comfort. It's the gentle parents who are telling children that they don't have to kiss Aunt Marigold if they don't want to. It's the gentle parents who stop tickling when their child laughs and says stop. It's actively pro bodily autonomy.

Again, I'm not sure it's really worth engaging with these people arguing against gentle parenting when they don't actually know what it is and are really looking for gotchas rather than trying to learn about it.

Sorry, @azimuth299 - I missed your earlier post. I take the idea of natural/linked consequences - but often the actual consequences are either unpalatable or aren’t easy to explain to a small child. So - to take my example upthread - you wouldn’t have said to my DD “if you bite your sister, you won’t be going to the party” because parties and biting have nothing to do with each other. But presumably the actual natural consequence of biting her sister would be to let her sister bite or hit her back? And I don’t want a descent into violence, so I step in and nip it in the bud. And “if you bite your sister, she will remember it and you may, little by little, irreparably damage a relationship which will be really important to you in later life” won’t have a lot of resonance with a three year old. Same with “if you don’t wear your coat you’ll be cold”. That’s fine if you’re prepared for your toddler actually to be cold. Otherwise you presumably take the coat with you (and you have to carry it) and then there’s no actual consequence as they get to have it on at a time of their own choosing and don’t have to learn to follow that instruction. And when a teacher in school says “coats on”, they are unlikely to go through the same rigmarole…..

It should be actively respectful of other people’s comfort too. Children need to learn about consideration for others otherwise they become self serving. No isn’t just a one way street.

It is though. So I can't engage further with you because you're just making things up. It's like playing chess with a pigeon.

🤷🏻‍♀️Making shit up? What are you talking about? I never forced my kids to kiss aunt Marigold - I was respectful of their autonomy. I’m on another thread defending the choice for children to choose their own bedtime ffs - the original gentle parent!! But they still need adults to uphold and model boundaries and got told a stern ‘no’ now and then. And fundamentally they were taught to show consideration for others. That’s the heart of civilised behaviour. Not pleasing yourself by screaming, snatching and doing what you want without any parental checking.

Good job gentle parenting does uphold and model boundaries then! And good thing it does teach consideration for others! Good job it doesn't teach children to please themselves by screaming and snatching!

Just read up on what gentle parenting actually is before arguing against it, or it makes the whole discussion completely pointless and painful!

It is not just the term ‘gentle parenting’ that people don’t understand . It is also a lack of understanding how the brain develops. Many children don’t cope with the UK school system at 4/5 years old- since we seem to set our expectations too high on how a child should behave. Impulse control and empathy develops in the human brain at around 7 years old. Yet schools, and parents, consistently punish a child for simply having an immature brain. Model the behaviour you want to see, recognise all behaviour is communication, use positive reinforcement, natural / logical consequences, model empathy and show respect. Some may think that their punishments are working, or that simply saying ‘no’ has worked, but it’s usually quite the opposite. Learn the basics of brain development before you parent maybe…

I don't think many parents would force their kids to kiss aunt Marigold these days.

Again, it's very often just parenting when I see people describing it and then they get cross and say we don't know what it is.

This is the trend in schools now too.

Loved by SLTs who never want to be bothered by bad behaviour.

Absolutely ridiculous and wastes so much teaching time.

As a primary school teacher, I can tell which teachers follow the 'gentle' method very easily by watching the classes during assembly.

The unruly classes are always the ones taught by teachers who shout the loudest about this new, better way of managing behaviour.

I've always found the best way is to build strong, positive relationships with my class where they trust me to have their best interests at heart and understand very clearly what types of behaviour are unacceptable. I don't shout, I am fair but I often tell children 'no' or 'stop' and give consequences that are proportionate as well as obviously promoting and praising good behaviour.

Empathy and impulse control develops in the human brain at around 7. So that would work for a child of that age or above. What would you do with a 4 year old in those situations?

@LilyTuesday, you don't know of children below 7 who are capable of empathy? And how do they learn empathy if we don't actively remind them of others' needs and wants at younger ages. It does not just magically appear out of nowhere as if a switch goes off. They need to be socialised as such.

That's not gentle parenting, it's just permissive as it doesn't sound like they're enforcing any boundaries or consequences for his behaviour.

Id do exactly the same and always have. Start from the beginning... teach morals, empathy, responsibility and concequences. Otherwise you will have a battle on your hands.

I was thinking about this as I walked the dog this morning.

It dawned on me that what I see a lot (and I mean a lot) is parents who have latched on to the bit about explanation rather than just "no", but have failed to grasp that the explanation needs to come alongside actually preventing/stopping the undesirable behaviour.

The explanation on its own won't stop the toddler throwing food or hitting or whatever.

But so so many people who think they're "gentle parenting" are actually just letting their DC behave fairly antisocially, whilst keeping up a constant monologue about why they shouldn't behave like that.

So with my sister - she thinks that by explaining to her DC that throwing food isn't nice, she is doing the right thing and parenting appropriately and gently. But actually the toddler gives no fucks for the explanation, because throwing food is infinitely more fun right there and then than not throwing food, and needs someone to actually stop them throwing food (in a calm and gentle way, I agree) and then explain in very simple terms why they can't throw food. Not waffle on feebly as the toddler chucks spaghetti everywhere and then say hopelessly "they just don't listen to me, they're just wild" 🙄 Just take the bloody bowl away already!!

Oh my god I've never thought of that before but you're so right.

Teach them the rules - no hitting, no snatching, if you hurt someone accidentally you say "sorry", say please and thank you etc etc

I think you are a bit on the late side with your estimations of when children tend to develop empathy- it doesn't descend on them fully formed age 7, rather it develops over time but ultimately, who cares? Saying sorry to a child you've hurt makes them feel better. If your kid's not feeling it, so what?