to think sometimes gentle parenting is taken too far?

[GPgonewrong]

This week I’ve spent a few days with friends, their baby and son who’s almost 4. I have DS who is a few years older.

They gentle parent (which I also do, to an extent) but it means their toddler never hears raised voices, I didn’t ever hear “no”, everything was dealt with through a compromise or sitting down with him. All sounds fine, until you experience the behaviour. He bounced on every single chair and sofa, constantly pulled out furniture, wouldn’t sit down for a meal, eating little bits and buggering off running round, never ate a full meal but fed on demand. He shoved me out of the way several times, complained every time he was explained to why he shouldn’t be doing that, which he shouted back “NO! You can’t say that”. Completely unable to share, always snatching off the other kids, and didn’t say goodbye when we left. He is almost four but still won’t play nicely, instead his idea of play was destructive, throwing things around and knocking things over.

AIBU to think it’s gentle parenting taken too far and no discipline? Or maybe a separate issue?

I have a nearly four year old who could be described in the same way. We have boundaries and say no. However, he was five months old when Covid hit, and these kids didn’t have the advantage of play groups and interaction with kids from a young age. There simply wasn’t anywhere open to take them. It’s all very well criticising the parents, and that may be correct. However my kid is behind in his emotional development and social interaction. If you haven’t raised a pandemic baby then try not to judge. These little ones missed out and it will take time to catch up. My DS could easily get over excited in a social situation and it’s on us as parents to expose him to as much as possible now, but don’t forget they have missed out.

Gentle parenting?! What fresh hell is this FFS.

There is a lot of this around these days, spreading like a trend. A secondary school deputy head said to me recently that behaviour at the good school in her middle class advantaged area was through the floor and what used to be exceptional bad behaviour, stemming from family/social difficulties/deprivation, is now the norm. Middle class kids who just can’t behave, attention seek, disrupt, won’t sit still, are rude, no respect for teachers. No wonder teachers are leaving (I’m not a teacher), they can’t actually teach for all the low level disruption.

Many of my kids’ friends over the years have had zero boundaries and dreadful behaviour that parents either ignore or laugh off or, worse still, think is cute. The kids are genuinely unpleasant to be around and we have had to stop seeing ‘friends’ because we and our kids can’t stand their kids (or their parenting) and its effects on us (won’t share with our kids, won’t sit at table, are rude, break toys, hit and kick their parents and other kids, have tantrums way past tantrum age, kick windows and doors, jump on sofas, insist on going first in games and winning (and being facilitated by parents) etc etc. The list goes on, several families not just one, no social issues just very weird hands off utterly crap parenting.

it’s the kids I feel sorry for. They are utterly unpleasant but it’s genuinely not their fault.

People always say the same on these threads 'that's not gentle parenting, that's no parenting' when that's clearly not the case, given the OP tells us that the parents do engage, with long conversations and compromise. Which in fairness takes a lot more effort than a sharp 'no'.
Personally I think gentle parenting is very controversial. People (with children too young to assess its ultimate outcome) insist on its benefits, with little weight given to the possibility they may simply have a child with a compliant personality. Evidence of poor behaviour resulting from it is glossed over or parents are blamed for not doing it right, which just results in a closing down of debate. If the only response is a hard 'it works or you must be doing it wrong' it's impossible to have any discussion on the benefits and pitfalls.

I agree - there's a very strong 'no true Scotsman' thing going on with gentle parenting. And as you say a lot of insistence that the benefits will be seen in adulthood, which is possible but also unprovable. I think the same thing about attachment parenting - a lot of people seem genuinely convinced that if they are slavish enough in infancy/toddlerhood/often a good bit beyond then they'll have teens and adults who are perfectly emotionally balanced, which just isn't a realistic expectation of human beings. I've said this before but I think the future 'but we took you to stately homes!' will be 'but we talked about your feelings!' - ie 'I did it all correctly so why are you still so disappointingly flawed'?

See this is where I have a problem with this kind of parenting. It doesn’t seem to encapsulate any kind of ‘no’, it’s always a dilution of that message and I believe that’s the problem. This post suggests that it’s ok for a child to want a toy that someone else is playing with and seek to secure it immediately rather than the much better life lesson of ‘it’s not available, move away and find something else’. Toddler groups were full of toys and yet many parents had long conversations with tiny tots about ‘asking billy to share, ask if you can have a turn’ etc when poor bloody little billy just picked up the toy and shouldn’t have to dilute his own enjoyment just because another toddler is immediately demanding it.

There are some parts of gentle parenting I do follow but I can't get behind all the debating and discussion with toddlers. I agree, they can barely manage two stage instructions and yet your supposed to have these long monologues with them?

Sometimes you do just need to put your coat and shoes on and go, there isn't time to have a debate about it.

I think people are right that me and my DH have been able to gentle parent, hold boundaries and talk about feelings with our kid because we only have one so we have enough time and attention for that. No idea what our parenting style will be like when our next child is born but I know that we intend to do the same since it worked so well with our first and it's given us such a lovely and calm family dynamic.

My friend has 3 kids and does the same style as us (gentle parenting which includes strict boundaries and routine) and it seems to have worked for her. The chats about feelings aren't especially long they're basically "it's ok to be sad that you aren't getting more iPad but I told you that was the last episode so the iPad is going away" I don't really see how it's much longer than telling your kid off that you already told them the iPad was going away but like I said I only have one kid at the min so who knows what I'll be like with two.

I guess maybe there are other forms of gentle parenting which include discussion and compromise with kids which we definitely don't do... We hold firm boundaries.

What is the 'it's ok to be sad' really adding if it's said as a general mantra, though? If you're just saying it in a token way then it's quick but meaningless. If you're genuinely going to 'sit with them through their feelings' every time you need to turn off the iPad then it is quite time-consuming. I also think it gives them a distorted idea of how reasonable their feelings are. I think that showing and modelling what is and isn't a big deal, rather than 'validating' every disappointment, is an important part of parenting.

I forgot one of the main reasons that people seem to go a bit less 'gentle' with kid no 2 - which is that it seems to concentrate the mind a bit when the child that's being snatched off or who is at the sharp end of 'ungentle hands' is also yours. It turns out that a lot of people find that behaviour that they felt it was reasonable for their child's peers to absorb in the name of long-term emotional development suddenly find that when it's their baby it's not so reasonable.

It's instead of saying "don't cry" or "it's ok, everything's fine! You're just not getting the iPad" which teaches kids to bottle up their feelings and people please. So what it achieves is letting my kid know he can feel whatever emotions he feels and also role models that it's ok to hold his own boundaries and not people please. It's totally fine if you don't think this is enough but I think it is for our family. My main point of my post is to say I think you can gentle parent and still not be completely passive and it's not the same as letting your kid run riot.

I think the issue is that your kind of parenting doesn’t encourage either resilience in the face of real life actions - taking turns, iPad going off, time to put shoes on even though existentially you don’t as a two year old feel you should have to wear shoes - creates future engrained problems for peers, carers, teachers and the wider world that will come into contact with your kid. Imagine a teacher having 30 x 4 year olds who needed a long discussion and a hand-hold when told it’s tidy up time - it’s unworkable, even if you have the time to make it ‘work’ for you in your own home.

I was a bit of a shouty parent (not mean just very firm) - my kids are grown and gave me no shit through their teen years. They wouldn't dare be rude to me Several of my friends complain about how their kids shout at them and call them names. Not a chance in hell would I tolerate that. They still just say 'please don't talk to me like that it isn't kind'. Being meek and feeble like that doesn't work with kids who need rules and boundaries as they figure themselves out.

I guess you didn't read anything I wrote! That's fine though - I have a kid that I am teaching emotional resilience and preparing for the world. He is super well behaved and follows routine and instructions. So off to enjoy my Sunday with him and DH.

My Mum was like this. She doesn’t have much to do with us or dc any more as a direct result.

But you've " snatched " the toy from your child in their eyes in this example. Doubt they really understand your explanation aged 2 anymore than if you'd just said " no you don't take a toy from another child".

TBH, it sounds within the realms of normal 3-year-old behaviour. But certainly, if his parents are otherwise "normal and sensible", it's also probably a bit of over-indulged and under-disciplined.
When will he start school? If he's NT, they'll soon knock some sense into him.

There is a world of difference between never telling a child “No” and continually saying “No”. One says to a young child in a gentle smiley voice, “No we dont do that” with maybe a quick reason and then distract, give a snatched object back etc.
In cases where safety is a potential issue the tone of voice attracts prompt attention.
Never saying no is barmy.

I think the proof is in the pudding. I'd only be interested in hearing from 'gentle' parents whose children are now adults. My youngest DC is now 16 and whilst I never shouted or smacked, but I held strict boundaries and said no. Did the system of never saying no work?
Fellow parents who seemed permissive back then, now have out of control DC who don't respect them as parents. Children are all different. SIL thought she was parent of the year because her DS was so calm and quiet as a young child. The reality was that he was a very gentle child who didn't require discipline. It came from him. The problems came when he got older. She had never had to set boundaries and when she tried he simply didn't respect her or listen. He's completely out of control.

Evidence of poor behaviour resulting from it is glossed over or parents are blamed for not doing it right, which just results in a closing down of debate. If the only response is a hard 'it works or you must be doing it wrong' it's impossible to have any discussion on the benefits and pitfalls.

I completely agree with this.

I have friends who gentle parent in exactly the way it’s being defined by the “that’s not gentle parenting!” contingent, and their children are all horribly behaved, rude, shouty and aggressive.

If there’s something legit about this practice we’ll know in a decade or so, but I’m highly sceptical.

And I say this as someone whose parents were the opposite of gentle. That is not something I’m advocating!

Yes I definitely would "snatch" the toy in this example because otherwise I would be having to deal with Tilly trying to get the toy back while trying to sort out the situation! I think any parent would.

I get what you're saying about understanding, that's why I said at the top that how you would deal with it really depends on the child, their age, maturity and understanding. With a younger child you would probably do more distraction, and if that didn't work then you'd be out in the corridor dealing with the emotions quickly. With an older child you'd be doing more modeling of negotiation.

I don't really think that what I've put it monologuing. After every one of those questions I would be pausing and listening, modeling that I am calm and that there is no rush and that we can problem solve together.

Children need boundaries. They need boundaries to feel safe and loved. Parents that 'parent' like that tend to end up with wayward, undisciplined children because the children are running about like headless chickens trying to find some safety.
The psychology behind this fact is absolutely fascinating.
A basic gist, Imagine being dropped in a desert, no map, no compass. Nothing. And being told to find your way out. There's people (ie the parents) who know the way, have the compass. But don't give it to you. They just smile while you run about getting more scared and lonely and hot and alone.
That's how children without boundaries feel. Lost, alone and scared. Then when they come into contact with the parent they're usually angry, frustrated and scared that their attempts to communicate their need for direction has been ignored or misunderstood. It's horrifying that it's becoming so prolific under the guise of 'gentle parenting' (which you scenario is not)
Therapeutic parenting is the perfect parenting style in MHO, especially for SEN children.

This is fascinating, and shows it’s really not kind parenting after all.

though I agree I don’t like the shouty/authoritarian parenting either - like most things in life there is a spectrum of happy medium which will achieve the same aim.