to think sometimes gentle parenting is taken too far?

[GPgonewrong]

This week I’ve spent a few days with friends, their baby and son who’s almost 4. I have DS who is a few years older.

They gentle parent (which I also do, to an extent) but it means their toddler never hears raised voices, I didn’t ever hear “no”, everything was dealt with through a compromise or sitting down with him. All sounds fine, until you experience the behaviour. He bounced on every single chair and sofa, constantly pulled out furniture, wouldn’t sit down for a meal, eating little bits and buggering off running round, never ate a full meal but fed on demand. He shoved me out of the way several times, complained every time he was explained to why he shouldn’t be doing that, which he shouted back “NO! You can’t say that”. Completely unable to share, always snatching off the other kids, and didn’t say goodbye when we left. He is almost four but still won’t play nicely, instead his idea of play was destructive, throwing things around and knocking things over.

AIBU to think it’s gentle parenting taken too far and no discipline? Or maybe a separate issue?

In seriousness though, you're allowed to feel bored and embarrassed waiting twiddling your thumbs. Of course parents will prioritise themselves and their children and if they shoot themselves in their foot and no one wants to hang out with them, then they have done a bad job at prioritising themselves. Not everyone gets on with everyone.
Maybe they will learn from those consequences.

Generally, they don’t. Because we’re British and we’re conflict avoidant. My kids are much older now and I’m studiously avoiding making arrangements with one mother because we all think her DD is, not to put too fine a point on it, fucking obnoxious. But of course my DD doesn’t say “no way do I want to play with you”, because she’s too polite. And I don’t say, “after last time, there’s no way I’m having your rude child in my house”. We say “oh, that’s a lovely idea - I’ll look at the diary/we’re away for most of the summer but will definitely arrange something when they’re back at school” or whatever. Which is cowardly, really, but everyone does it. So that parent probably goes away thinking we’re a bit flaky/disorganised/incredibly busy. She won’t think “gosh - I bet they think my kid is badly behaved”. Human nature isn’t like that.

That's not gentle parenting

It sounds more like different standards / attitudes towards what's on and the child's personality than gentle parenting itself causing the issues tbh.

I don't see anything wrong with parenting that doesn't use shouting, shaming, threats or bribes to make a child conform, which is what I consider gentle parenting.

You can be a strict gentle parent or a permissive gentle parent.

I wonder why you wouldn't let your children bounce on a sofa? Mine had great fun jumping from chair to chair playing floor is lava, rearranging all the sofa cushions to make forts etc

Much easier to be a gentle parent with one kid 😅. A bit trickier with 4 under 6. My kids were all mellow and naturally well behaved but I still occasionally had to tell them off. I never shouted but I did tell them off and punish them.
I did all the normal talking, explaining and reasoning shite and it worked most the time but on occasion I needed to tell them off.

I found some of my gentle parenting friends had terribly behaved kids and some may not have shouted but used guilt trip'ing instead. Things like saying how they would be disappointed in their kid if it did something naughty. I found that way more fucked up than simply telling a kid that they aren't allowed to do something,

The consequence still happens even if people are too British to actually mention what it is.

Not a good lesson for any children involved to go about things like it is a dirty secret though?

Have you ever tried to calm an angry autistic and adhd toddler in the middle of a busy playgroup with 20 kids

No. And that’s because you’re positing a completely different scenario. Anyone would accept that a child with special needs may need to be treated differently. A child without special needs because it suits a particular parenting style will be seen in a different light.

That's not gentle parenting, it's no parenting. Twats.

Not a good lesson for any children involved to go about things like it is a dirty secret though?

On one level, no. On another level, they learn how the world actually works! (Ironically - I’m actually more direct than most people and my kids would agree with that! In this particular case, the father was opining on the poor manners of some members of the class in the earshot of my older DD (not the classmate of this child). She was particularly amusing on the subject when we got in the car to go home - “has that man actually ever met his own daughter?”. I’m ashamed to say that I laughed uproariously.

Yep I've seen that in action. Sanctimonious clap trap. If course children need to be told no. Else they turn into little shits. As you see happening in front of you. Just don't go round. And don't invite them to your house or it will get trashed

As far as I have observed people in general are not overly prone to believing their feelings are invalid or to sacrificing their own needs in order to be people pleasers. Quite the reverse in fact. Some are of course, but I'd hardly feel its so endemic in the population we need to overhaul parenting styles to prevent it. Seems a little like a solution looking for a problem to me.

I’m afraid the problem with the “I know you’re angry but you can play if you don’t hit” approach is that it sends mixed messages. That it’s okay because you’re angry.

But it's literally the opposite of what you're saying! It's not "It was okay to hit because you're angry" it's "It's okay to be angry but it's unacceptable to hit".

I think most of the issue here is people not understanding what gentle parenting actually is, and think that it means no boundaries, no rules, no consequences. There are plenty of lazy permissive parents out there, and they are somehow being lumped in with gentle parenting. Maybe the concept needs to be rebranded to make it clearer what it is.

Tbf , shit parenting is shit parenting. Gentle parenting does not automatically mean shit parenting.

Just like we all agree that kids need boundaries and rules and consequences, but some parents take to an extreme and are too strict, controlling or even abusive and so rigid they can't mould themselves to a child's needs.

Have a read through the hundreds of threads on MN where posters are unable to say no or are terrible of confrontation. Plenty of people pleasers on here.

I think most of the issue here is people not understanding what gentle parenting actually is, and think that it means no boundaries, no rules, no consequences. There are plenty of lazy permissive parents out there, and they are somehow being lumped in with gentle parenting. Maybe the concept needs to be rebranded to make it clearer what it is.

What is it then? Because the woman I describe sure as hell thought she was one. And every time it comes up on here, that’s the answer “oh no, they weren’t doing it properly”. (Shades of the “that’s not my Brexit, the one I voted for” in modern political discourse.). Presumably everyone who does it thinks they do it well and effectively, or they’d do something else!

When people have described 'gentle parenting' to me, it just sounds like.....parenting.

Another case of well meaning liberal idealism leading inadvertedly to negative outcomes for children.

I might be ancient but does nobody teach their DC to consider others? Instead of all this introspective ‘what are we feeling?’ bollocks we should be saying (in stern voice) ‘you don’t snatch other people’s toys because that is mean and makes them sad’ or ‘you don’t scream like that as it hurts peoples ears’ or ‘we don’t bounce on Aunty Susan’s sofa because that’s disrespectful’ - you should teach your child consideration for others when dealing with their behaviour. Empathy is so important for civilised societies.

Well there are many books explaining it in detail but I can give a broad brushstrokes explanation.

It's based on authoritative parenting so there are firm enforced boundaries based on appropriate expectations for a child's developmental age. No boundaries or unenforced boundaries would be called permissive parenting.

Gentle parenting also discourages random punishments not linked to behaviour (e.g. "If you answer back then no TV for a week"). Instead the emphasis is on natural consequences ("If you refuse to wear your coat then you will be cold") and for older children logical consequences ("If you draw on the wall then I will take away your pencils").

It teaches children that it's okay to have strong feelings about situations (you can be unreasonably angry that the shop is out of your favourite juice, that's okay). But that behaviour that harms others is unacceptable. Emotions and behaviour are dealt with separately - so you will teach children coping strategies for their emotions and help them understand what makes them feel better. Behaviour is dealt with by clear, often-repeated simple and age appropriate rules and the rules are enforced.

There is also more collaboration between adult and child. So if I notice a pattern of behaviour that I don't like, when the child is calm I might say "It seems like when you come out of swimming at the moment you're really cross, do you know why?" And you'd be surprised how often even very little children will have great thoughts about how to stop those patterns!

Ironically some posters would moan about that too as being too wordy and "explainy" and not actually using the word NO.

I find the ‘No’ thing so weird. No is such an important word! Why on earth would we ban ‘No’? No is so effective in stopping toddlers doing something dangerous.
Even in adult life, it’s so important:
’No, I will not take more hours at work.’
’No, thank you, I’m full/don’t want another drink.’
’No, I will not have sex.’

I never learnt about gentle parenting because I heard so much of the anti-No stuff, it put me off. I explain and try to help them understand their emotions, but I also say no. I actually had a debate about this subject in a baby group a while ago. We should never feel embarrassed or unable to say, ‘No’.

In this case, it sounds as though they might not manage his behaviour brilliantly. Although, I’m sure sometimes mine appear a bit feral. Fingers crossed he will

I’ve given you several explanations and examples… you seem to be ignoring all explanations which don’t fit into your own narrative.

You’ve given examples of children with special needs where they need to be accommodated differently. Which is entirely fair enough. But it’s a very different scenario.