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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think no child benefit/tax credits are unfair on apprenticeships?

89 replies

16notanAdult · 17/06/2023 12:52

Thanks to a post on here I've found out that as my DD is going to do an apprenticeship I will no longer get child benefit or tax credits for her (I'm currently still on TC due to be UC from November ish but she still won't count as a dependent)

She will be earning £5.28 an hour and I will now have to ask her to make up the difference despite the fact she is 16 and on such a small wage. Her wage will need to cover all her transport and work clothes etc.

We have a very tight budget and no ability to get better jobs or more hours due to disability in the household.

It just seems unfair that if she isn't classed as a dependant anymore she isn't entitled to minimum wage.

OP posts:
ghostyslovesheets · 17/06/2023 15:27

Needmorelego · 17/06/2023 15:07

@16notanAdult “learning” isn’t actually compulsory until age 18 at all.
The 3rd option (from the government website) says work a minimum of 20 hours a week while in part time education or training.
So a 16 year old could get a full time job (40 hours) and be “training on the job” - not an official government apprenticeship but just whatever staff training the company does. If the company pays more than minimum wage as standard a 16 year old would probably earn less than older employees because that’s standard but could be more than an apprenticeship wage.
Is that an option she could go for? A relative of mine dropped out of college at 17 (November birthday so during the first term). Changed his weekend retail job to full time, learned on the job and at age 22 is part of the management training program.

There is a 4th option - to not be in education, employment or training - lots of young people do that!

There is actually no legally enforceable requirement for 16-18 year olds to do anything.

OP I agree with you - many families can't afford the drop in CTC/CB that comes with a young person doing an apprenticeship - and the wages are often low. There is NO reason why, just because a NMW is under £6 an hour, an employer should pay that - we have some apprentices on £21k ! It's pretty rubbish.

Gothambutnotahamster · 17/06/2023 15:32

ContinuousProcrastination · 17/06/2023 14:13

Your main issue here is that you are thinking of the apprenticeship as her working & earning money. Really it is not, its a different form of education.

Between you, you should not be worse off as a household with a sixth former studying.

This!

TwoFluffyDogsOnMyBed · 17/06/2023 15:33

No point asking this on here….Mumsnet hates benefits. You’re here to suffer you know.

I think in Scotland they get free uni plus tax credits and maintenance continue. But instead of feeling outraged that we don’t have that, most mumsnetters seem to feel grateful for our inadequate new ‘safety net’. I’m very lucky to be on tax credits, which are ending soon and I’ll never be moved to UC. I don’t think many people understand how awful UC is compared to tax credits.

Bobbings · 17/06/2023 15:35

What is the figure in £'s you will be down by when the benefits are cut?
That would be a good starting point so we can see what options might be best.

However, lI left school at 16, did an apprenticeship and I paid board to my parents of £100 a month.
Unlike some previous posters, it hasn't harmed my relationship with my parents and now just thinking about it. Even the £300 ish I had left after felt like loads as I'd left school with no income and then to go having money in the bank was great.
At 16 I certainly wasn't saving for a deposit on a house, it went towards buying cheap booze for friends house party's at a weekend and clothes.
My parent most probably spent my board more wisely than I did!

Then, at 18 when I gained my qualifications, I went for the 'proper' version of the job and got a very decent wage for an 18 year old. I used that wage for driving lessons, board to parents and life's luxuries.

16 years later, good wage, mortgage and very good with money as had to budget from a young age.

Your child will end up just fine.

Needmorelego · 17/06/2023 15:45

@hattyhathat I didn’t mean it to sound harsh - just an alternative option.
So many people (going by many many threads on mumsnet) are still convinced it’s compulsory to be “in education” until 18 or that the only other option is an apprenticeship.
But it isn’t.
A lot of 16 year olds decide to do A levels at school or a college course or an apprenticeship but they aren’t really that interested in doing but choose it because they think they “have” to choose something.
So many don’t realise that you can essentially be working full time at 16 in just a normal (ie non apprenticeship) job.
I don’t know if the OPs daughter chose her apprenticeship because she really really wants that qualification or because she felt it was compulsory to just choose something.

flagpie · 17/06/2023 16:25

I think in Scotland they get free uni plus tax credits and maintenance continue.

We don't get tax credits for uni student children, no.

Funnyfive · 17/06/2023 16:39

Most apprenticeships are full time jobs which doesn’t leave much time for a second job to top up the earnings. Whereas kids doing a levels or college are on school hours leaving plenty of time for a part time job. Jobs for 16 year olds at our local sports centre pay between £7 and £10 an hour meaning they can do a levels and earn over £100 a week evenings and weekends plus their parents are still able to claim child benefits.

GottaGirlcrush · 17/06/2023 17:06

Funnyfive · 17/06/2023 12:59

If she’s only 16 then that is really unfair - kids can’t work before 18 so it’s either school, college or an apprenticeship - 2 out of 3 of those options are still eligible for child benefit so why not apprenticeships too? Especially as the vast majority only pay nmw.

Of course kids can work!!

My old job....major retailer....took kids on from age 16! Many do

Needmorelego · 17/06/2023 17:12

@Funnyfive the legal starting age for work (except for acting/modelling etc which can be done from birth) is 13.
There are many many restrictions at the younger age but by 16 a full time job or part time around school/college is perfectly legal. There are still restrictions at 16 and 17 (no night shifts for example) but of course they can work before 18.

BrokenAndAfraid · 17/06/2023 18:52

I agree with you on this given the circumstances it does feel unfair. If you were able to do extra hours I'm sure you would. I think they should at least pay child benefit given that she's still in education. I'm sorry that you have found yourself in this situation and I hope you claim everything you can to support yourself. I wasn't supported by my parents from age 16 and don't hold any bad feelings against them, and it's taught me so many valuable lessons that nothing in life comes for free.

HermioneWeasley · 17/06/2023 19:00

She’s earning. Why should the tax payer continue to fund your household?

Needmorelego · 17/06/2023 19:04

@BrokenAndAfraid if she is doing an apprenticeship she isn’t still in education. An apprenticeship is a job.

twinkletoesimnot · 17/06/2023 19:20

Babyroobs · 17/06/2023 15:17

I do think apprenticeships are often very good though. The young people I know who have done them ( including my ds2 ) have all been keep on by the companies they did their apprenticeships with and are earning decent wages by the age of 21/22. It's a couple of hard year op hopefully for more gain in the longer term.

That should be the case.
Lots of agricultural ones tend to say there isn't a full time job, sorry! Then tell the college they want another student for the next year so they get to keep cheap labour.

MohairTortoise · 17/06/2023 20:17

OP is getting a rough time on here, for an issue that affects huge numbers of people, that of families only being supported in low income households until their children finish non advanced education.
I don't agree for one minute that children should be supported by the govt forever, but something needs to be done by the govt to ensure that low income families can afford to pay their basic bills without relying on child related benefits.
Currently, millions of families rely heavily on UC/TC/child benefit/child maintenance in order to pay the essential costs.
This notion that benefits received because you have a child are wholly spent on the costs a child incurs are untrue in many cases where the household rely on benefits/maintenance to afford to live.
If you can afford to pay your bills, feed yourself and offer basic support to your child without this help, thank your lucky stars, because millions of families cannot!
The last time I checked, child tax credit was about £66 a week. WTC was £75 a week if your income was particularly low, and child benefit was £20 a week. Added to which, there was extra housing benefit and council tax support if you had a dependent in your home.
As soon as your child left non advanced education, that all stops with immediate effect.
That's at least £161 a week.

I had a friend who worked in an exceptionally low paid job. While her DD was in education, she received the £161 a week, as well as 25% Council tax discount and her rent was heavily discounted. My friend had health issues meaning she couldn't work more hours than she already did, yet apparently her poor health was not severe enough for PIP.
As soon as her DD left education, not only did she lose the £161, but she suddenly had to pay full rent and council tax.
She applied for WTC and was awarded £10 per week.
She has since become homeless and despite working as much as she can, lives in poverty.

Another friend works 80 hours a week in a physically demanding job which has destroyed her health, again on low pay, doesnt have a partner or any children and again, lives in grinding poverty simply because she cannot afford to live working less hours.
2 weeks ago, her car failed it's MOT and now she must work more hours to get her car fixed.
One of the major considerations when contemplating splitting from a partner is how it will affect the finances.

This is the reality for many many people.
I see it time and time again on here and IRL and yet there seems to be a blind spot of many on here, where posters cannot fathom how difficult it can be to support yourself on NMW. These people aren't irresponsible. They are bloody desperate!!

Perhaps the answer is in ensuring that a single adult can afford to live on their own when they are on a low income in the first place, rather than expecting them to just magically cope.
Millions of people are living on NMW. Many of those live alone.
How many of us could live on NMW if it was the only income in the household?
OP mentioned disabilities. Perhaps OP isn't adequately supported by the govt and relies on the income her DD generates? Instead of criticising her, maybe the problem is that she should be getting more support so she doesn't have to rely on the income from her DD. * *

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