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To think no one has a right to make money off their house

1000 replies

Laughingstock1991 · 16/06/2023 19:17

The general consensus among financial commentators this week has been that the housing market has turned. Interest rates are still going up and are unlikely to come down for a few years. The low interest rate financial experiment that has been in place since 2008 has ended and it’s unwinding is going to be painful. The housing boom was based on cheap credit.

My mortgage is likely to go up about 400 a month. Lots of commentators reckon we are in for a big fall in house prices. Good thread here:
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1668987423643119623

What pisses me off is the absolute assumption made by some people (like my friend today) that the government should use public money to bail out mortgage holders. Most people were stress tested on their mortgage- I was- and yes it’s going to be tough but do I think public Money (renters money) should be used to bail out mortgage holders- fuck no! The Lib Dems have raised this also today.

House equity is unearned wealth. There are no guarantees. We have been through a boom and now it’s going bust. Hopefully sanity will return & housing will be seen as a home again- not an investment. Its not a ‘market’.

And I say all of this as a homeowner who is going to have to pay a lot more. I want everyone to be able to afford a decent home- not just those with money.

I don’t think that’s unreasonable!

https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1668987423643119623

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
3BSHKATS · 17/06/2023 10:03

Hit reply too soon, a 25% part of my house deposit came from from schemes that were open to everyone to use. They either did or they didnt. There is a better one available now they could save in. My children do.

Twiglets1 · 17/06/2023 10:07

3BSHKATS · 17/06/2023 10:03

Hit reply too soon, a 25% part of my house deposit came from from schemes that were open to everyone to use. They either did or they didnt. There is a better one available now they could save in. My children do.

My children also use/used a scheme where for every 4k they save in a year, the government top it up by an extra 1k. Its the Lifetime ISA or LISA.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/lifetime-isas/

Angelou79 · 17/06/2023 10:09

I’m 43 been renting since 17 & never been able to get on the housing ladder despite now having £30k+ deposit.
OP I think you are spot on

Tidsleytiddy · 17/06/2023 10:11

ProudToBeANorthener · 17/06/2023 09:37

Buying a house is a form of gambling or investing in that values/prices can go down as well as up. It’s truly hideous when you’re the one that it’s going down for, but we need to remember that we are adults with the expectation that we make our fully informed decisions and have to live with the consequences. It is not the government’s responsibility to bail us out when times get tough. We need to pull
up our big-girl pants and deal with it otherwise where do the handouts end?

Absolutely this It’s like me going to the bookies, placing a bet then asking for a bail out when my horse loses. They can suck it up. Had it too good for too long. Mortgage “holidays” and subsidised low interest rates. Quantitative easing to help them which devalued the pound in our pockets all so they could keep houses.

3BSHKATS · 17/06/2023 10:13

Tidsleytiddy · 17/06/2023 10:11

Absolutely this It’s like me going to the bookies, placing a bet then asking for a bail out when my horse loses. They can suck it up. Had it too good for too long. Mortgage “holidays” and subsidised low interest rates. Quantitative easing to help them which devalued the pound in our pockets all so they could keep houses.

This is just such a British attitude that you just do not see anywhere else in the world.

Tidsleytiddy · 17/06/2023 10:14

Which attitude? Mine?

Tidsleytiddy · 17/06/2023 10:16

If they can’t afford the houses sell them and rent. Why should their greed be further subsidised??

SaveMeFromMyBoobs · 17/06/2023 10:22

Tidsleytiddy · 17/06/2023 10:16

If they can’t afford the houses sell them and rent. Why should their greed be further subsidised??

But its all the young families that have worked hard and have mortgages that would have to sell and rent. People living alone in huge mortgage free family homes in their 60s and 70s unaffected. The big land lords with multiple properties mortgage free would be unaffected and not need to sell. Rents go up due to demand for rental housing and those with mortgages trying to cover the increase in costs. It won't be a fix all you think.

rosetintedmemories2023 · 17/06/2023 10:22

3BSHKATS · 17/06/2023 10:13

This is just such a British attitude that you just do not see anywhere else in the world.

I don't think most other countries would have mortgage bailouts.

The countries with the highest rate of home ownership are eastern European countries (due to their soviet past so no mortgage anyway), countries like Portugal where people stay a long time with parents so probably have more equity, Singapore (ditto and most of the properties are government controlled anyway so low risk of losing your home). China has high rate of home ownership but one child policy and intergenerational living means that the risk is spread over 4 people. Also developing countries but it's communally owned by the family often so risk spread over more people.

we are unique (other than the USA where this will also be a problem) cos we have a nuclear family structure but also large swathes of lower middle class and working class people owning property. France has a pretty decent rate of home ownership too but their housing is more affordable relative to earnings than us. In Europe it's more common for the bottom half to rent rather than own so less problems in a crisis like this one.simply put, in a country with better rental laws most people would think twice before buying because of the risk of house prices falling. In UK, it's completely different because private rental is so unstable.

So I think it is weird to bail out homeowners anywhere in the world.

troubg · 17/06/2023 10:24

If they can’t afford the houses sell them and rent. Why should their greed be further subsidised??

Greed?! 🤦🏻‍♀️

SaveMeFromMyBoobs · 17/06/2023 10:28

SaveMeFromMyBoobs · 17/06/2023 10:22

But its all the young families that have worked hard and have mortgages that would have to sell and rent. People living alone in huge mortgage free family homes in their 60s and 70s unaffected. The big land lords with multiple properties mortgage free would be unaffected and not need to sell. Rents go up due to demand for rental housing and those with mortgages trying to cover the increase in costs. It won't be a fix all you think.

I should say after that the housing crisis increases, not enough social housing, can't sell the houses so get repossessed as isnt the demand, banks having all these houses, hit rock bottom, banks failing, land lords buy up all the cheap housing stock and when you come out the other side you have an even bigger problem than today about lack of houses for your kids to buy because the land lords own them all, likely mortgage free, with no incentive to sell them.

troubg · 17/06/2023 10:30

I also had help towards my rent.

That explains that bit.

And I didn’t work until three months before I bought the house so no childcare costs.

Where did the money come from for the savings then?

And hi w did you raise enough for the 2nd property?

Cosyblankets · 17/06/2023 10:34

Laughingstock1991 · 16/06/2023 19:57

@Plankingplanks And the government bail out renters all the time, topping up rent or psyjng it in full. It's only home owners who don't get help even if they are on benefits

Most working people arent entitled to any benefits. This is a fallacy that’s often spouted out in these types of discussions.
Most renters have to absorb unregulated large rent rises & no security.

Do a benefit check. Say you're not working but renting.
Then change it to not working but got a mortgage.
You will get two very different answers

troubg · 17/06/2023 10:36

Are you actually kidding me ? How do you think from benefits.

🤣🤣

Most FTBs can't do that & they don't tend to have 4 dc...

But if I had to not declare the savings in order to get out of that situation so be it.

Which is fine but you can't really judge others for not circumnavigating the system & give yourself a pat on the back for it.

There is something fundamentally wrong when people who actually WORK for a living, cannot afford to buy, but someone on benefits can.

It's really not the norm for most people. I assume the benefits also covered that posters housing costs which again many people on benefits have to pay market rents.

3BSHKATS · 17/06/2023 10:37

troubg · 17/06/2023 10:30

I also had help towards my rent.

That explains that bit.

And I didn’t work until three months before I bought the house so no childcare costs.

Where did the money come from for the savings then?

And hi w did you raise enough for the 2nd property?

The first property was cheap. 10% deposit down and overpaid for 2 years, putting 25% equity into it even before you account for any capital gains.

Was working again obviously as i need to for the mortgage, saved 10% deposit. Put the other house on permission to rent, my child lives there and pays that mortgage.
The second property is not too expensive so i will do the same again i think.
Probably the child will move out of house 3 so will rent it on the open market at that point. By which time the house will be paid off though so no mortgage.

I say this not to brag, but to demonstrate if I can do it, anybody can it isnt complicated.

3BSHKATS · 17/06/2023 10:40

@troubg back in 2001 when I was a first time buyer, I did what every other ftb did and worked two jobs.

TizerorFizz · 17/06/2023 10:40

People really won’t be able to rent! There’s already huge pressure on private rentals. That’s why rents are spiralling. High demand and poor supply. Sadly lots of poorly informed posts on here. There is a very tight market for rentals. It means we need to keep families in their houses. Many are extending mortgage term. Hugely expensive in the long run but it maintains a roof over your head!

Private landlords expanded because they saw a gap in the market. Thatcher did not allow councils to build. Private sector took over. We don’t like it but it’s history now. They do, however, provide housing. If it was down the government building homes, millions would be homeless!

Laughingstock1991 · 17/06/2023 10:41

@SamanthaCaine oh what a surprise. You are a landlord too.

OP posts:
troubg · 17/06/2023 10:42

Perhaps people who work for a living, should try harder.

You are being completely disingenuous. It's like me saying "oh I didn't find it hard to buy in London, I just saved hard, so others can do it". I did save but I also lived at home & had 6 fig help.

troubg · 17/06/2023 10:43

@3BSHKATS oh you're old, sorry I didn't realise. I thought you only moved here 5 yrs ago & had 4 young dc.

Tbh it's pointless comparing things now to pre 08 as the landscape was completely different.

troubg · 17/06/2023 10:44

That's sounds rude, I mean your older then I thought.

Tidsleytiddy · 17/06/2023 10:45

SaveMeFromMyBoobs · 17/06/2023 10:22

But its all the young families that have worked hard and have mortgages that would have to sell and rent. People living alone in huge mortgage free family homes in their 60s and 70s unaffected. The big land lords with multiple properties mortgage free would be unaffected and not need to sell. Rents go up due to demand for rental housing and those with mortgages trying to cover the increase in costs. It won't be a fix all you think.

You take out a mortgage you service it. No handouts. As a PP said it’s a gamble.

3BSHKATS · 17/06/2023 10:45

troubg · 17/06/2023 10:43

@3BSHKATS oh you're old, sorry I didn't realise. I thought you only moved here 5 yrs ago & had 4 young dc.

Tbh it's pointless comparing things now to pre 08 as the landscape was completely different.

I did only move here, five years ago. With nothing.

Having lived abroad and rented for many many years. Nowhere did I say, my 4 DC were young at the time, although I have young DC now.

Zebedee55 · 17/06/2023 10:46

Andrew Neil has written a good article asking how this government, and no other, has managed to enrage buyers and renters. Usually, governments only upset one or the other.

If, as predicted, interest rates rise to 6% by next January, both lots will be affected. LHA doesn't cover the full rents now, let alone with more rises.

"Nationwide, the country’s biggest building society, raised its mortgage rates this week for the third time in under a month. With the rise in interest rates still fast and furious, major lenders are having to pay more for the funds they raise.
So, with rapid fire, they’re passing on the cost to borrowers. HSBC, Britain’s biggest bank, was so bewildered by the dizzy rise in rates it simply took its mortgage products off the market until it got a better idea of where rates were going.

These are scary times for homeowners with a mortgage and those struggling to get on the housing ladder. Not all homeowners are affected equally. The eight million who’ve paid off their mortgages are insulated from the rises, at least when it comes to their homes. Of the seven million with a mortgage, many are on low fixed rates that won’t come up for renewal for a year or two.
But for those whose fixed term is coming to an end and those first-time buyers trying to scrape together the purchase price, the prospects are daunting. Almost 120,000 homeowners will come off cheap fixed rates this month alone.
Two years ago, they were able to borrow at 2.59 per cent over two years. They are being forced to renew at 5.83 per cent, which means twice as much a year in interest payments on a £200,000 25-year mortgage — and that’s before mortgage providers push through this week’s increases. Some families will now see mortgage payments devouring 50-60 per cent of their income.

But because UK inflation is falling at a snail’s pace (so far), the Bank is expected to raise rates again next week, to 4.75 per cent: a harbinger of even more mortgage misery to come. Indeed, the financial markets now expect the Bank base rate to peak at between 5.75 per cent and 6 per cent, which would be excruciating for mortgage holders, many of whom could simply not afford the monthly interest payments of 6 per cent-plus.
Tens of thousands would lose their homes because they couldn’t keep up the payments. The buy-to-let market, on which so many renters now depend (and which is already in serious trouble), would collapse. So would house prices, tilting Britain into the recession it has so far avoided. The stakes could not be higher.

Our predicament is not helped by the fact that the Bank’s reputation for dealing with inflation is somewhat shot to shreds. Public confidence in it has collapsed, even in its own opinion poll surveys. Who can blame people for losing trust in what is meant to be one of the great institutions of the nation?
Not so long ago, as inflation started to grip, the Bank assured us it would be transient. In reality it’s turned out to be rather long lasting. In 2021 it confidently forecast inflation would be back to its target 2 per cent within two years. It’s currently more than four times that. Quite an overshoot, even for a central bank with a well-honed track record for wrongly forecasting inflation. Now it predicts 2 per cent inflation some time next year. Why should folks believe it?
The financial markets don’t. They’re demanding higher returns to finance the Government’s mounting debts. The UK is now having to pay 4.9 per cent annual interest on two-year debt, the highest of any major economy and pretty much back to where we were in the aftermath of last September’s shambles of a mini-Budget. But this time Rishi Sunak and Jeremy Hunt don’t have Liz Truss to blame.

The politics of all this are horrendous for the Government so close to an election. But it needs to hold its nerve. All sorts of siren voices are urging ministers to prop up the mortgage market with a multi-billion-pound intervention to bail out homeowners in trouble. But we are in danger of creating a political culture in which the solution to every adversity is for the Government to open its chequebook (which is really our chequebook).

That’s what happened during the Great Crash of 2008 and its aftermath. It happened again during the pandemic, above all with the furlough scheme costing hundreds of billions. Those rattling the begging bowl yet again might not have noticed, but previous multi-billion bailouts have already stretched the Government’s fiscal position to the limit, with more than £1trillion in national debt (100 per cent of our GDP) and continuing annual budget deficits still in the tens of billions.

Does it really make sense to sanction yet another spending splurge, especially at a time when even governments can no longer borrow cheaply?

Is government to become the automatic provider of safety nets whenever anything goes wrong, in any sphere?
I think not."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12204401/ANDREW-NEIL-Tories-managed-enrage-Generation-Rent-Generation-Mortgage.html

ANDREW NEIL: How have Tories enraged Generation Rent AND Mortgage?

As Nationwide raises its mortgage rates for a third time in under a month, ANDREW NEIL says the Tory party have almost made a housing policy designed to kill off their electoral prospects.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12204401/ANDREW-NEIL-Tories-managed-enrage-Generation-Rent-Generation-Mortgage.html

NotLovingWFH · 17/06/2023 10:46

I agree @Laughingstock1991 and I have lost a lot of money in two housing crashes when I had to sell for personal circumstances. The debts took time to clear but I wouldn’t have expected state assistance. When I bought my first house in 1987 it wasn’t because I wanted to own a house it was because I wanted to leave home and there was no alternative.
I wish very much that council housing had stayed council owned and not been sold off. I don’t think you should be able to pass a tenancy on either.
I would like there to be the option of renting social housing or buying a home rather than all the buy to let that has allowed so many poor landlords to make money.
I think the European example of renting is a good one and we should follow it. Everyone should be entitled to rent a home that suits their needs and when they don’t need it it goes to someone who does.
There are many places I’d like to live but I could never afford to buy there nor would I ever qualify for social housing at the moment. Private rent is paying for someone else’s retirement and generally extortionate because you have to cover their overheads.

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