Page 11 | Alfie Steele

Ffswhatsthepoint · 2023-06-13T22:20:43+00:00

I checked there was no other thread before I posted this one. Alfie, 9, killed by mum and her bf. Drowned. A catalogue of abuse and many phone calls to police/ss by neighbours. The neighbours often fed him too. We HAVE to find people accountable in this case. It was reported. People knew. Nothing was done. Absolutely nothing. Its harrowing. I feel like I failed him. And I'm hundreds of miles away.

GobbolinoCat · 15/06/2023 16:46

And people tried evry single avenue to help including the school

Tracker1234 · 15/06/2023 16:51

I wish they wouldnt call these animals step father's or partners. They are the Mother's latest lay. They certainly arent step fathers. I know that some will excuse this behaviour by saying the Mother has low self esteem but in this case it seems the woman had no boundaries. She put herself first so that this man would stay with her and went along with the beatings and abuse.

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/06/2023 17:17

How many calls from how many people including child screaming including existing sw concerns and a ban on the bf staying over would trigger removal

Theres no number of calls, assessments are made based on the situation of the family. From what I gather (not being involved in the case) the boyfriend wasn’t meant to be staying over but not banned from the property (social work don’t have the power to do that).

Existing concerns would form part of that assessment as would police reports but each case is assessed individually and they take time, and in most cases children remain at home while investigations are completed. Each call made will contribute to that investigation but children aren’t removed on the basis of a call from a neighbour.

Unless police had reason to believe the child was in immediate danger when they attended they have no grounds to use emergency powers to remove a child.

Social work have no power to remove a child at all - that decision is made by the courts based on information provided by services including social work and police and it’s not unusual for court to go against social work recommendations.

There will be a review of this case including police actions which will highlight gaps in practice, we’ll have a better idea then of any agency failings.

potniatheron · 15/06/2023 17:47

OlympicProcrastinator · 15/06/2023 07:21

You need to have a good level of maths and English, a degree, plus the Step Up to Social Work is a graduate scheme whereby you gain another degree in social work. The starting pay is £32000 rising to £40000 with experience.

The comments on here blaming social workers are naive. You only see the ones missed. You have no idea how many children are rescued. A social worker could have a career and save hundreds of children, one gets missed and they are called incompetent.

It is not the fault of social workers, it’s the fault of the abusers. Contrary to popular belief, social workers don’t have the power to remove children, they need to have a high threshold of evidence to present in court and the court decided. Often courts go against social services. Only the police have the power to just walk in and take a child in immediate danger and we all know how underfunded they are.

Who would do a job where you are hated by the service users and you’ve got the general public calling for you to be jailed if you make the wrong call? Not me for sure.

And lessons do actually get learned. Serious case reviews have direct action on new ways of working that are implemented and will have saved many. But you’ll continue to only hear about the failures.

People will continue to berate the workers on the front line trying their best while the government continues to underfund the police, social services, family support, and CAHMS and the sentences given to dangerous offenders will carry on being paltry and ineffective.

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The comments on here blaming social workers are naive. You only see the ones missed. You have no idea how many children are rescued. A social worker could have a career and save hundreds of children, one gets missed and they are called incompetent.

Exactly this. It's like with medicine. A heart surgeon could save hundreds of lives but she'll only be in the papers the one time she makes a mistake.

andHelenknowsimmiserablenow · 15/06/2023 18:26

Exactly, that is what I am saying. The Police have powers SW dont.

Itisalwayspossibletobekind · 15/06/2023 18:56

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/06/2023 17:17

How many calls from how many people including child screaming including existing sw concerns and a ban on the bf staying over would trigger removal

Theres no number of calls, assessments are made based on the situation of the family. From what I gather (not being involved in the case) the boyfriend wasn’t meant to be staying over but not banned from the property (social work don’t have the power to do that).

Existing concerns would form part of that assessment as would police reports but each case is assessed individually and they take time, and in most cases children remain at home while investigations are completed. Each call made will contribute to that investigation but children aren’t removed on the basis of a call from a neighbour.

Unless police had reason to believe the child was in immediate danger when they attended they have no grounds to use emergency powers to remove a child.

Social work have no power to remove a child at all - that decision is made by the courts based on information provided by services including social work and police and it’s not unusual for court to go against social work recommendations.

There will be a review of this case including police actions which will highlight gaps in practice, we’ll have a better idea then of any agency failings.

Thank you for the clear explanations of the various processes, and associated limitations. I just can't fathom why Alfie wasn't removed by the Police Officer when he was clearly in extreme immediate danger when the neighbour rang and reported Alfie being waterboarded, tortured and beaten at the very time the crime was happening. Especially given the wider context where so many other concerns had already been raised about him.

Just to be clear, I really appreciate you and all the other posters outlining the processes and am not expecting specific answers.

It is also clear that SWs processes take time, but the Police are the only ones with the powers to immediately remove children in immediate danger. I get that there is huge deception and cover up, but if a Police Officer arrived at a crime scene and found an adult who had just been subjected to the above torture, surely they would be able to ascertain that something was horrifically, hideously wrong?

WilkinsonM · 15/06/2023 19:29

Itisalwayspossibletobekind · 15/06/2023 18:56

Thank you for the clear explanations of the various processes, and associated limitations. I just can't fathom why Alfie wasn't removed by the Police Officer when he was clearly in extreme immediate danger when the neighbour rang and reported Alfie being waterboarded, tortured and beaten at the very time the crime was happening. Especially given the wider context where so many other concerns had already been raised about him.

Just to be clear, I really appreciate you and all the other posters outlining the processes and am not expecting specific answers.

It is also clear that SWs processes take time, but the Police are the only ones with the powers to immediately remove children in immediate danger. I get that there is huge deception and cover up, but if a Police Officer arrived at a crime scene and found an adult who had just been subjected to the above torture, surely they would be able to ascertain that something was horrifically, hideously wrong?

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I'm sure we will find out what happened and didn't happen in due course.
FWIW what usually happens when police take police protection is either children go back within the 72 hours with a safety plan OR the local authority makes an emergency application for a court hearing which should be no later than the day after the application is made. This is difficult if they take PP on Friday evening because the 72 hours doesn't pause on weekends. Police can't extend PP either.

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/06/2023 20:57

I get that there is huge deception and cover up, but if a Police Officer arrived at a crime scene and found an adult who had just been subjected to the above torture, surely they would be able to ascertain that something was horrifically, hideously wrong?

I imagine the police response to that call will be central to the learning review - I too am interested to know what happened there.

TheHandmaiden · 15/06/2023 21:02

I cannot imagine how hopeless that child felt when the police arrived and he was left there.

LifeIsPainHighness · 15/06/2023 21:03

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/06/2023 20:57

I get that there is huge deception and cover up, but if a Police Officer arrived at a crime scene and found an adult who had just been subjected to the above torture, surely they would be able to ascertain that something was horrifically, hideously wrong?

I imagine the police response to that call will be central to the learning review - I too am interested to know what happened there.

From the videos I’ve seen online they made her stay in the home and call her boyfriend rather than follow Alfie to hospital. I’m guessing they arrested her then and there

LifeIsPainHighness · 15/06/2023 21:03

Sorry ignore my post I’m an idiot I thought you meant they day he was killed

Hopingforagreatescape · 15/06/2023 21:15

Yes, we don't hear about the hundreds of lives saved, because we can't ever see "what might have happened" if a child had stayed. What we do hear about is parents complaining to the press when their child is taken "for no reason". Sometimes that parent gets their child back (and not because they actually want them - just because they don't want the social workers to win) and then goes on to kill them.

LifeIsPainHighness · 15/06/2023 21:43

Hopingforagreatescape · 15/06/2023 21:15

Yes, we don't hear about the hundreds of lives saved, because we can't ever see "what might have happened" if a child had stayed. What we do hear about is parents complaining to the press when their child is taken "for no reason". Sometimes that parent gets their child back (and not because they actually want them - just because they don't want the social workers to win) and then goes on to kill them.

I was once involved in a situation with extended family who had SS involved (SS were absolute incompetent dicks there too, and it wasn’t an abuse issue). I supported by way of providing childcare temporarily etc. so I joined a Facebook support group for families with SS involvement.

I had to leave in the end because the amount of people who said things like “My children have been removed because a social worker came round and there was a bit of mess on the floor. Nothing bad just toys and clothes. Then they came round today with an emergency care order I can’t believe they’ve removed my kids over a bit of mess” and I just thought WOW you fucking liars.

LifeIsPainHighness · 15/06/2023 21:44

And then other posters would pile on egging the OP’s on about how terrible that is and how the same happened to them.

Some even claimed their children were removed for ‘absolutely no reason at all’

girlfriend44 · 15/06/2023 21:57

It's disgusting, there were so many y complaints about this couple. Apparantely they were nicknamed the ferals.

The partner wasn't supposed to be o ernight at the house ut nobody checked there is so much incompetence around.
Sick of hearing these scummy stories.

It's all the time now. How can you be so cruel.
Aren't they embarrassed to be such disgusting human beings?

Do they really believe the jury will believe their pathetic lies?

BeatrizViter · 15/06/2023 22:08

Why is it only social workers are expected to be able to identify in advance every case where a child might be harmed and remove them, when police are not expected to identify every murderer in advance and arrest them? Because it is understood that police are working to a legal threshold and need proof rather than being worried and suspicious. Just like social workers need a legal threshold of proof before taking any non voluntary action. And unfortunately calls from neighbours on hearsay evidence count for very little, families often say its malicious and the child may be interviewed and not substantiate concerns for many reasons. And I doubt society is ready for removing peoples children based on unsubstantiated non-professional accounts. So maybe...start holding the actual perpetrators responsible and stop putting people off ever being a social worker with trashing every single one of them.

girlfriend44 · 15/06/2023 22:15

BerriesPineCones · 14/06/2023 00:11

ALL public services are run into the ground under this government. People are dying waiting for ambulances. State schools are in a mess/teacher shortages. Mental health services are dire. Jailing social workers/ paramedics/ teachers won't help. You need to look at who's running the country.
Doubtless I'll now be inundated with people saying the government are doing a marvellous job and it's just those lazy social workers/paramedics etc

Don't forget the nhs dentistry is in crisis too.

We are going the wrong way. Everything is going down the pan

girlfriend44 · 15/06/2023 22:19

potniatheron · 15/06/2023 17:47

The comments on here blaming social workers are naive. You only see the ones missed. You have no idea how many children are rescued. A social worker could have a career and save hundreds of children, one gets missed and they are called incompetent.

Exactly this. It's like with medicine. A heart surgeon could save hundreds of lives but she'll only be in the papers the one time she makes a mistake.

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It's abit more than one mistake it's all the time now.

WilkinsonM · 15/06/2023 22:24

girlfriend44 · 15/06/2023 22:19

It's abit more than one mistake it's all the time now.

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65 children a year are killed by parents/carers. Do you know how many children pass through social services every year? There are hundreds of thousands and out of those hundreds or thousands would certainly have died if not removed or some other intervention. You have no idea at all what social workers are doing daily to keep children safe.

LakieLady · 15/06/2023 22:38

weareallout · 14/06/2023 00:01

All services have now been cut almost to non existence. I'm in a government Dept where there is 1/3 the workforce there was ten years ago & more work. Police, SS, CAMHS etc all in same position. Massive case loads that we can't ever clear. We can't get to all urgent work as too much of it. Non urgent just actually never gets sorted

I know two people who worked in child protection and have left in the last year because of the pressure.

They had massive caseloads because of understaffing and were constantly stressed and panicking as they couldn't monitor all their cases to a level and extent that they considered safe. They found they couldn't sleep for worrying that they couldn't protect children because they had too many cases to deal with. They were both totally burnt out.

One also told me that at her LA, there was a shortage of solicitors to prepare cases for court.

LakieLady · 15/06/2023 23:16

Gettybetty · 14/06/2023 11:46

Yes. But when they've brought up in violent homes and it's all they've known and been modelled as how adult relationships work, it's as difficult as it is to educate the girls who grew up in violent homes.

And working with a number of young people who grew up in violent homes and are now replicating that in their early relationships; there's a really difficult balance to be found between educating a domestically violent 15/16/17 year old who is still legally a child and often in LAC or in a shitty abusive home that it is not at all acceptable that he behaves this way while also treating him as the traumatised child he is.

There are no specific psychoeducation programmes in my area for perpetrators of domestic/relationship violence under the age of 18. Because they're still children and should be treated as victims of their own trauma rather than perpetrators.

So everyone's stuck in trying to help them in a meaningful way. And once they turn 18 most of the support from agencies falls away. And when they're late teens and early 20s and beyond and still perpetrators of domestic violence, no-one in society really gives a shit anymore that they witnessed their Mum being beaten or raped. They're adults now and should know better.

And as dramatic as it sounds, its really possible that Alfie would have gone on to be an adult man like that, had he lived, given the household he was living in.

But when you are tragically murdered by abusive parents aged 9, everyone falls over themselves to weep about it.

But more boys like Alfie don't get murdered and in 10+ years are the adults like his 'Step'-Dad who murdered him. And then no-one gives a shit and says he was just an evil bastard.

And it goes round and round and round.

And there are always girls and women who come from equally dysfunctional and abusive backgrounds wanting to be in relationships with dysfunctional and abusive men. Because that's what they know to be how relationships work.

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Well said, @Gettybetty .

weareallout · 15/06/2023 23:20

Unless you work in public services or gov departments I don't think people really realise the caseloads. As someone else said - these are parents / people who lie & cover up stuff. Even if we 'know' issues are there, we can't do anything unless evidence is there for court. And 100+ kids and no time to help them

Seymour5 · 16/06/2023 07:00

WilkinsonM · 15/06/2023 22:24

65 children a year are killed by parents/carers. Do you know how many children pass through social services every year? There are hundreds of thousands and out of those hundreds or thousands would certainly have died if not removed or some other intervention. You have no idea at all what social workers are doing daily to keep children safe.

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Of course people have no idea, aren’t interested, don’t really care. But some, as we’ve seen here, are still experts in how social workers fail. No matter how much the reality of working in Children and Families social work is explained, they know better.

Itisalwayspossibletobekind · 16/06/2023 09:33

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/06/2023 20:57

I get that there is huge deception and cover up, but if a Police Officer arrived at a crime scene and found an adult who had just been subjected to the above torture, surely they would be able to ascertain that something was horrifically, hideously wrong?

I imagine the police response to that call will be central to the learning review - I too am interested to know what happened there.

From what I have understood, this was not the only 999 call made about Alfie.

I appreciate that - just like with social workers - we do not routinely hear about the thousands of times Police remove children in immediate danger, nor fully appreciate the horrors of their jobs/situations they encounter.

But given the repeated 999 calls and all the concerns raised, it's incomprehensible to see why Alfie wasn't immediately removed and protected.

And are there neighbours today making 999 calls about kids who are being tortured, only for them to be left at home too?

What needs to be done immediately to stop this completely?

Jellycatspyjamas · 16/06/2023 11:48

What needs to be done immediately to stop this completely?

Honestly? I don’t think it can be stopped completely. In the same way as we can’t stop murder completely, or rape, or domestic violence. We don’t have the gift to see the future, and measures that would aim for complete cessation of any of those crimes would also see innocent people impacted because we’d get it wrong.

Risk assessment is a complex balance of determining the likelihood of harm against the severity of that potential harm and it’s far from an exact science. The most immediate thing that could prevent children being killed by parents and carers would be to resource public services properly ie social work, education, police, health, CAMHS, family support services but no one wants to foot that bill. And even fully resources there will always be people who will kill their children and go to extreme lengths to hide that intention.