To expect to be able to take my annual leave after mat leave?

[Birminghambabe]

AIBU or is my employer?

I’ve been working with current employer for around 4 years. I’m on maternity leave and due to return early December. As far as I’m aware because my friends have told me and what I’ve read online is that I accrue my holiday days whilst on mat leave and can take them before or after mat leave.

I was sick around 32 weeks with HG so went on sick leave then early mat and my boss said I couldn’t use my annual leave then, so when I asked if I could just use it after and return in Jan they said no as I can’t carry over as per my contract. Surely as I’m on mat leave that overalls? The contract just says I’m allowed 22 days plus bank holidays per year Jan - dec.

I like my employer but at the same time I think they’re incorrect and it’s a lot of holiday (extra time off with baby) and money.

AIBU? Or are they

So simply put you put your return to work date as November but take leave and return in December. That last 4 weeks on full pay is great

@Canyoubelievethesepeople there is no agreeing to disagree here, your employer screwed you over. I work in HR (proper qualified HR, not office manager or business owner doing people function). You were entitled to all those bank holidays reimbursing (pro rata if you are part time). What do you mean you took them to task? Because if you’d gone the legal route you would have won. Because from what you’ve said, it sounds like your employer broke the law.

@Canyoubelievethesepeople same with your annual leave for the year. You had 8 months of accrued leave that they’ve robbed you of. If it’s not possible or even convenient to take all your annual leave before maternity leave they have to allow you to carry it over. Some shitty employers will try telling you that you will lose leave because you can’t carry it over, but this is unlawful.

sorry, I’m really mad on your behalf.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/work/4823793-mnhq-here-post-your-pregnancy-maternity-work-questions-here-for-free-legal-advice-from-maternity-action?reply=126831611

you might find this useful. Sorry for spamming the thread, my phone gets annoyed with me and reboots if I spend too long on one post 😂

This was my exact scenario; hol year Jan-dec and baby due v early Jan

Company policy was no carry over but they had to let me carry a whole year of annual leave as I had no opportunity to take it in the hol year as I was on Mat leave for the whole of the hol year.

Our HR told me it's the same as being sick for 1 year; you cannot take your holiday and it would be discrimination if only pregnant employees were not allowed to carry that over.

If there is opportunity to take leave BEFORE mat leave or you cut mat leave short and have December off on hol pay, that's your choice but you 100% don't lose it or they are breaking the law

What did he say?

Is your boss saying you can't have any annual leave in this leave year (January to December 2023)? That seems wrong. You've clearly accrued it.

Or when you had to take sick leave and start maternity leave early, did that mean you were unable to take accrued leave from 2022? And did your boss tell you then that you couldn't take it in writing or was this a verbal conversation?

I hope the link to advice from Maternity Action is helpful for you.

And try to get any responses from manager in writing if not already, in case you do need to challenge them, and so any adviser etc can see exactly what they're saying.

Interesting. I find it desperately unfair that employees are obliged to pay for a holiday for workers who haven't been there all year.

Annual leave should be about the law making sure employees aren't worked to the bone 24/7/365. But when you've been off anyway on mat leave, there shouldn't be a paid holiday tacked onto that.

But that's just my opinion. Unfortunately we live in a crazy world where everybody's entitled.

If your holiday year runs out while you're on Mat leave, your employer must allow you to take your statutory holiday entitlement during the holiday year (ACAS link) . If you get more than the statutory minimum I suspect it would revert to whatever your employee handbooks says about unused holiday, so you may lose that.

This should, however, have been discussed prior to your going on maternity leave, to give you the opportunity to use any annual leave at the beginning of your mat leave. Obviously your HG has complicated this.

At an absolute minimum they should let you "return" from mat leave sooner, but use your accrued holiday instead before your official return and therefore at least get paid for it.

Oh don’t be ridiculous. Maternity leave is about rest and recovery, bonding with your baby, and coping with a major lifestyle change.

It isn’t a holiday so of course you should still get your holidays.

But maternity leave isn’t a holiday. It’s 24/7 childcare; it’s not a jolly, even with an “easy” baby. If an employer can’t afford to have employees take maternity leave and annual leave, then it’s not a viable business. And yes, I’m “entitled” – entitled to my rights!

Those rights aren't there by itself, they've been created by humans. Entitled humans.

The point isn't whether mat leave is a holiday or not. From an employer's point of view the worker wants a paid holiday after not having put in the work.

I've yet to hear a moral argument why that's right.

https://www.acas.org.uk/managing-your-employees-maternity-leave-and-pay/their-leave-pay-redundancy-and-dismissal-rights

Is the site you need.

Legally you are entitled to carry over holiday pay, including bank holidays.

If your company tries to say no, that is discrimination and you have legal grounds to sue. Although ideally you don't need to go down this route.
Just need to tell them what they are legally required to do.
_ quote from website below
Employees 'accrue' (build up) their holiday entitlement as usual during maternity leave. This includes bank holidays.
They cannot take holiday or get holiday pay at the same time as maternity leave.
You could agree to them adding holiday to the start or end of their maternity leave if they want more paid time off.
By law, you must allow your employee to take their statutory holiday entitlement during the holiday year. But if they're not able to use it because they're on maternity leave for all or most of the year, you must allow them to carry it over to the next holiday year.
If you do not allow someone to take their holiday because of their sex, pregnancy or maternity, it could be discrimination.

@AbraKedavra I think I can explain. I will agree with you this far: In a situation where an employee has really good annual leave provision and really good enhanced maternity pay, the ability to carry over annual leave can seem like mad fantastical splurging of abundance. It seems like that to my friends in the US in comparison to their 'maternity' packages that are in fact usually sickness absence and often unpaid.

I've worked in public sector roles where enhanced shared parental leave pay can last between 4-8 months depending if both parents are employed by the same body. And where annual leave allowances are generous enough that you can 'return to work' for long enough to keep the enhanced pay, simply by tacking your unused annual leave onto the end of your maternity leave. Yes, it can seem generous to a fault compared to what others receive. I don't agree that generous is wrong. It's also a matter of staff retention. The value of that employee's contribution over years is certainly worth the cost of taking care of them as well as possible when they need it.

But, the policy is actually worked out on the basis of statutory minimums, to provide for those with the least money, the least savings, the least resources. I think this is morally right - we need policies to protect the "have-nots" most and best, rather than policies that only work for the richest or most comfortable.

If you are working for an employer who only provides Statutory Maternity Pay, that is 90% of your earnings for six weeks, and then a statutory amount. If you are working in a low paid job, you might only be able to afford the six weeks. Or maybe you push really hard to stretch to three months. Statutory holiday allowances mean that you'd accrue 7 days holiday in that three months - that's another precious week and a half to spend with your baby. Maybe you tack most of that years' annual leave allowance onto the end of your mat leave and that would give you another month plus a bit left over. You can see how it would be really valuable in that situation. Also, remember that the employer is reimbursed for SMP - they haven't paid for the employee during the maternity leave period at all unless they offer an enhanced package.

I'm really glad that we have decent policies that aim to make it affordable for women to spend necessary time with their young babies, and I'm really proud to have worked for employers who tried always to be exemplary in the way they applied those policies.

@AbraKedavra annual
leave, a specified amount of time off at their normal rate of pay is a basic employment right. Maternity leave isn’t a break in service so of course it continues. People on long term sick also accrue annual leave. Does that annoy you too? What about pay increases - Do you think these should be withheld too for people who have babies or have been off sick?

Actually yes, I don't think employees on sick leave should accrue holiday pay either. Do you think it's moral just because an employer has hired someone, that they should now be responsible for that person forever, even if it means losing money hand over fist?

Mat leave isn't a break in services? For real? I mean legally speaking it's not technically counted as a break in services, but in reality that's exactly what it is.

A woman can have worked maybe 10 months out of 3 years, and you think it's fair and moral to obligate the employer to pay her for holidays with pay rises?

@MrsLilaAmes

What makes am employer any more have than the employee? Most employers are small business owners who struggle with extra expenses. I'm all for mothers spending ad much time as possible with their newborns, but how is it fair and moral to force the employer to pay for it?

Ah well, thankfully for women, it isn't your opinion that counts, it's the law.

He is wrong, just point him in the direction of ACAS

I'm happy to say I have a moral compass independent of the law. I could never bring myself to be a sponger.

Your employer can dictate when you take your leave and back holidays, but they can't take it away, even if you're off on maternity, paternity or shared parental leave. They are not supposed to take your leave away at the end of the holiday year, our company basically makes those who didn't take enough holiday sit at home and twiddle their thumbs, as they are obliged to make sure people get their 28 days holiday or whatever one way or another.
So in your case theoretically they can make your take all your leave from the previous holiday year before you go on Matt leave, and similar for afterwards. But they can't take it away regardless of small print in the contract.

@AbraKedavra

What makes am employer any more have than the employee? Most employers are small business owners who struggle with extra expenses. I'm all for mothers spending ad much time as possible with their newborns, but how is it fair and moral to force the employer to pay for it?

I’m not sure I understand your first question but two points:

1. The employer isn’t paying for SMP at all. So they are only ‘out of pocket’ for up to 5.6 weeks ‘extra’ holiday pay if they are a small firm, hand over fist, and only offering statutory minimums. I think that’s a fair exchange for potentially years of loyalty.

2. The alternative is for pregnancy to be the preserve of the independently wealthy - practically and ethically unworkable - or for women to be completely dependent on men. Have a read of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn or any misery memoir to see what that looks like. It’s fair because it’s a societal choice to treat employees as more than just workhorses (which we would be horrified to do to horses!) and to enable women to have financial independence while protecting them and their children at their most vulnerable.

@AbraKedavra well that’s put us straight!

I take it you’ve never benefitted from maternity leave or sick pay, or tax free childcare, child benefit etc.

You are entitled to your opinion, I’m just really glad that the law disagrees with you.

I’ll be heading off on mat leave next week for 14 months, I’m tagging my 2023 annual leave and owed bank holidays onto the end of it. I suppose this makes me a sponger in your eyes 😊

Yes you do carry it over and they have to let you take it. However your taking it is then subject to the normal rules of taking leave, unlike actual maternity leave. For example if in your company there is a particularly busy few weeks of each year when no-one is allowed to be on leave, they would have to let you continue to be on maternity leave if the period fell in your maternity leave, but they could insist you return for that period and then take your accrued annual leave at a time when employees are normally allowed to take annual leave.

Also they should work with you to let you take it sometime. Basically say you return to work soon before you should have used the leave for the year, they could say you can't take it straight away, but then they should let you carry it over. If, for example, you returned to work at the start of the company's busiest month of the year, and the last month of your leave cycle, they could say you can't take leave that month or they could say you will lose your leave if you don't take it that month. They couldn't though say both those things.

https://www.acas.org.uk/your-maternity-leave-pay-and-other-rights/holiday-and-maternity-leave

This is a good guide. There is a difference between statutory holiday allowance and contractual holiday allowance. The employer must allow you to take the statutory allowance, but could pay in lieu for the additional contractual allowance.