Universal basic income and what it may look like

[porkpiesinthepark]

I've been thinking for a while about the criticism of UBI and I think it's due to people not being able to imagine the government trying to 'match' peoples wages. In my opinion, it never will but there will be alternatives to what we have now, which will be able to offer something better.

So say the UBI is £1000 a month for a single person.
We could change the housing market to allow much more public housing with rents set at an affordable level, much more stability, no private landlords and the option to customise/ change your home. Let's face it, home ownership is out of reach for the majority at present. I don't find people are dying to own their own homes but desperate to be out of the instability of the private rental market, out of parents houses, out of house shares etc. If you could offer the next best thing to owning your own house, I think people would go for it.
There would be much more community linked to people having extra time due to not working or not working as many hours. Now, not having enough to do in the day is bad but most people have these huge dreams for retirement and this would just allow them to do some of these things now instead. Also more volunteering, looking after elderly relatives etc.
I don't think that private car ownership would be a thing. There would be a big system like Uber who you could call rides on. There would be a cheaper option, say if ten people wanted to go to the city centre at the same time, they would have to walk to a hub and then the van would pick everyone up, like public transport but based on demand. It would be a status symbol to be able to call a car out just for you.
I think a lot more people would wfh getting the cost of transport and childcare down. Schools might even go remote, as there wouldn't be both parents working and so in theory they could help facilitate the lessons. Then teachers would have small classes of Sen kids like mine, key workers and vulnerable children. Kids would interact with others through volunteering groups with parents, or just playing out as there would be less cars and more parents around to keep an eye on them.
People will either hate this vision as it's so different to what we have now. Or they will like some parts. But what we have now can't continue.

Before the 1980's, council housing was lived in by middle class people as well as working class. The expectation among many on here that it is only for those in extreme poverty is a relatively modern one

@WiddlinDiddlin

Everyone is also free to earn extra money by going to work if they want to.

But how much tax would they have to pay on that "extra money". I presume income tax would have to start at around 50% to make up for all the tax lost from people not working and paying taxes, and to actually fund the UBI for everyone.

Would people work if over half of their earnings was taken in tax, plus costs of working, such as commuting, etc? Maybe those in very high earning professions would, but I can't see road sweepers, care workers, shop assistants, etc., being too keen to give up their time if they have 50%+ tax deducted!

Home education, many have already done it during the pandemic, they can give up work and many don't like current anti safeguarding, anti science, anti females ideologies taught in schools. Historically families always taught in the home.

Contemporary schools have in the history of humans not there very long, the wealthy had a governess, public boarding schools and universities

😆 more than half of lots of people's earnings IS already taken in tax, if they also have a student loan to pay and children.

The point is that capital and business profits would need to become the main provider of tax revenue, not taxes on employment. Productivity gains can fund this if it is managed properly.

Robot bins, self driving bin lorry, one supervisor human, no need for many bin men.

Hoists in out of bed, bath, helping with dressing, robot hoover, AI robot meals on wheeels let themselves into the home with digital locks, AI oversee supervisors, no need for many care workers, instead of several a day, one a day to tidy dishes into the dishwasher, sort out broken dishwasher etc.

Wave your family inheritance goodbye.

I think they mean no personal tax allowance or steps to the 50% PAYE tax.

Home education, many have already done it during the pandemic

And it was terrible for most dc

Currently no tax on first £12.5k of earnings!

Only 32% tax/nic on next £15k or so.

Only 40% tax/nic/student loan on next £22.5k or so.

No one is paying 50% or more tax/nic/SL unless their wages are currently over £50k!

What would be the point of getting an education if there were no jobs and everyone got UBI anyway?

It would be absolute living nightmare and I can't believe people can't see this. You'd end up with a massive underclass with no genetic memory of ever working, providing for themselves or being able to do anything, just being utterly reliant on the state, and a small elite which would basically evolve into a different species. And on a long enough timeline, the elite would ask themselves what the point of the underclass was if they didn't serve any purpose but to consume. And that would be it. UBI must never be allowed to happen, we need to fight against it with every fibre of our being.

No one is paying 50% or more tax/nic/SL unless their wages are currently over £50k!

And?

Only 40% tax/nic/student loan on next £22.5k or so.

Also wrong. 40% income tax + 2% NI + 9% student loan = 51%. Add in child benefit withdrawal and the marginal tax rate can be over 85%.

At £100k+ it is often well over 100%, hence many people cutting hours because they are actually charged and end up with less net pay for working more.

I think they mean no personal tax allowance or steps to the 50% PAYE tax.

The whole point is that before long there will be very little work for humans to do, and therefore the tax burden cannot fall on employment income anymore.

Very little work for humans to do? When have we heard that before. At the start of every Industrial Revolution. Nothing new and overhyped.

Oh dear. Technological growth is exponential. Comparing this to the industrial revolution makes no more sense than comparing that to when humans figured out how to make an axe from flint. I don't know about "hype". If anything I find it quite interesting that people are only just starting to discuss this recently when it has been publicised in newspapers erc when the change that is coming has been well documented by well-respected experts in the field in published books on the topic for at least 30 years now. Perhaps you were oblivious all this time and that's why you now perceive it as "hype". 🙄

I don't think I have ever seen someone so totally miss the point of care work.

Reading people’s posts in favourite of UBI - too good to be true in my opinion! All fantasies! There is never going to money for nothing, we will have to pay a price one way or another.

The puritan mindset of virtuous work has taken hold on a deeper level than I imagined.

Do people really believe this stuff? Like actually believe that work = value?

The entire point of technology is to reduce the need for human input: to achieve the same or more output with less work.

People really have been done a number on by those who don't work at all if they genuinely believe that hours in should equal money out as some kind of moral value, when those with serious money would never entertain doing anything of the sort.

I’m not sure the lovely picture painted is accurate, I find talk of online learning depressing and that’s even better than the point raised on why bother with education at all

I’m glad people see the good, maybe they’re right, the bad end of it isn’t looking nice.

And all the talk doesn’t really convince me we’ll have access to the public funds from tax from the few without some way of ensuring it

It's a very narrow view of the purpose of learning to think it is only for work/ earning money. I find that sad.

I have been saying that I think it is possible to restructure things so people can live a life of mostly leisure and freedom and how that could be done. Do I think this will happen? No. Very low chance, for the reasons I stated last night. I think it will be widespread destruction and misery instead, sadly.

Oh I know learning is for more than work that’s why it going fills me with dread.

If schools and learning can remain that will help with the part of the issue.

The other is human behaviour and how optimistic I am people will do nice things with their time

Well put. And then there's the term "entitlement". A popular comment on MN is "find out what you're entitled to, OP".

Could be positive I feel. Guess that is why w are having trials - to look at how people behave.

Lots of retired people with a guaranteed income don't loaf about, they volunteer. They find something meaningful to do.

Not enough carers even now, due to very low pay and poor conditions/regard by society.

I have no idea about the taxation side though. How would the money be raised to pay for UI and NHS etc? Hoping someone cleverer than me at economics can explain.

UBI only works (and is indeed only required) in a society with a very high degree of automation. Only jobs that cannot be automated, or where it is still cheaper to employ a human, still exist, and those are paid well enough to attract candidates who are willing to do them. Many jobs will no longer exist, or only in very small numbers: the motorcar did not get rid of farriers, but there are a lot fewer than they used to be. Ditto typists, boilermakers, and supermarket cashiers. New jobs will come into being as they always have when there are big upheavals in society. In the past, the new jobs have been "better" and more numerous than the old jobs that were rendered redundant. The concern with pervasive automation, AI, and robotics, is that the new jobs will not be as numerous as the ones they replace, nor will they be accessible to people who do not have highly specialised skillsets.

There will literally be no choice if AI takes over the job market. You can't let people starve. To fight back against it we'd need to fight against the development of AI.

Typical MN hyperbole. AI will take over the job market! People will starve! Save, us, government, by giving us money for doing nothing!