The problem with Brexit is we didn't Brexit hard enough

[Middlelanehogger]

The EU itself was just the start.

But there are still more institutions which still influence our laws and make it impossible to actually achieve "taking back control".

If anything, we've left the trading bloc (which had economic benefits) but stayed in many of the legal institutions (which retain control over us).

So which body do we leave next - the ECHR? The ECJ? Keenly awaiting responses 😘

I also note with interest that for all Big Bollocks Bravermans rhetoric, their limit on international students has been watered down as it turns out they subsidize domestic students.

A reason for immigration I hadn't really thought of till now. Nor, I suspect the voting public.

That has always been the case since they hiked tuition rates to £9k/year and cut Govt funding.

The UK is very dependent on international students.

Tertiary education is also one of the few world class "exports" the UK still has.

Trying to placate the mouth breathers from the red wall and the south will just damage the sector and make the UK poorer.

Oh I know - my Uni was at it in the 80s when education became a product rather than a process.

Just I hadn't really thought about it until it was mentioned explicitly.

Worth remembering that Brexiteers are still quite happy to tank the entire UK economy, so I'm not sure why Universities think they will prevail where manufacturers haven't.

‘Mouth breathers’ isn’t a great term.

Relying on international students is fine, their fees are much higher and subsidise domestic students. Other countries do the same.

I do think plans to disrupt the education sector will damage our standing - which does feed into tertiary reputation

On high tuition fees Martin Lewis did a great session which I watched for Ds, they showed it at school

The majority will not pay back their university loans. He split the room by it and got to the near end of a semi circle before hitting students that would pay

His advice always take the loan you’ll likely not pay

Relying on international students is fine, their fees are much higher and subsidise domestic students.

Now tell that to the people who don't like foreign and see what they say ...

Oh we did. And they voted for a government (who lied they were going) to stop it

@Howpo exactly right. It's a bit rich of @Florenz to blame Blair and brown for the benefits culture- who has been in power for the past13 years??

However if we are into that scenario may I give you Thatcher and selling off the utilities and social housing. We are still feeling the repercussions

There was nothing stopping Labour building social housing, but they didn't.

@Florenz this is true (except for NIMBY locals), but the Tories have now been in power for 13 years, so that excuse is wearing a little bit thin.

@Florenz they built 350,000 Housing association homes between 98 and 2010 - that's a fair old few.

No they didn't and they should of, as well as bringing in more secure private tenancies.
I'm not convinced HA properties are a good substitute either, enforcement of standards is shocking, helped along of course by council budgets slashed... didn't the Tories vote against min standards for rented properties?

How many council houses have the Cons built in the last 13 years?

However, the housing situation in the UK in the 2000s wasn't anything like as bad as it is now, 25% of private LL's have left the sector, house prices have trebled since Labour were in, so tenants cannot afford to buy properties that come onto the market and tenants still get just 2 months notice and no fault evictions will continue after the the new renters reform bill, just under a different name i.e LL wants to sell or move in, who will police that?

Try to understand, I’m not interested in party politics. Clearly this thread is about that and I was wrong to butt in.

History and historical trends continue and yes we have had some cultural and economic trends continue since the 80s, some since the 90s, some since the 00s; many should not have happened, some were unavoidable. All have contributed to where we are now, to a country unrecognisable to those of us born a while ago. It is a country in severe trouble, a country that is pretty disgusting quite honestly to those of us raised in the post-war solutions of freedom of information and democracy. If all you are interested in is playing party politics and other power games those trends will continue until we are living in a dystopian nightmare. We are half way there already: I see very little difference between a 1-party state and a 2-party state, or even a 3-party state with our population levels and an attitude of command-and-control.

Jesus Christ...

Yes. That's what the problem is, we didn't do it hard enough.

Not that it was a shit decision made by selfish, and primarily racist, arseholes.
Nope, not at all.

The problem has always been right to buy in the UK.

It is an abomination cooked up by Thatcher and her cronies which had created a massive supply-side problem in the social housing sector, which had then mushroomed from there to the private rental sector.

Until you get rid of it and allow local councils to build social housing with no intereference from the NIMBYs, nothing much will change in the UK.

Local people should get zero input on house building. We have far too many 60+ year olds delaying housing construction for years because they object to their "view" or the "village is too big" or "the pub is too loud" or "insert ridiculous reason here".

We need a national master plan for house bullding with an actual long-term industrial strategy. Right now we have neither. Its all short term hodge podge decision making depending on who happens to be in power.

@Howpo Yes I think HA should have far more controls enforced. Personally I think labour should have stopped right to buy - unless you had been there for more than 15 years and paid 80% plus of the rent without any recourse to benefits and only at 25% discount from value. I know a good few that had paid little rent and somehow wangled it and got family to effectively buy for them and then flog it on very quickly which really wasn't the point.

Well, that’s ageism right there. I object to more and more housing in my village and am twenty years away from 60. Why do i object? Because there is never an improvement in infrastructure or services.

Party Politics is everything, politics is everything, from pot holes to swimming pool closures to housing... etc.

Parties get voted in and make choices that in the main have wrecked the UK over the last few decades, that wrecking has just accelerated over the last 10 years.

Well, that’s ageism right there. I object to more and more housing in my village and am twenty years away from 60. Why do i object? Because there is never an improvement in infrastructure or services

Yes we've had 100s of houses forced onto a rural community, now the local sewage plant cannot deal with the waste and it gets pumped into a river and/or tankered out, the 'station cannot be upgraded due to the fact it gets flooded!!!

The local health centre has less GPs than it was pre housing estate.

Oh and the developer got planning with 30% affordable/to rent, they got that removed post planning, so 100% market sale.

Planning is a developers wet dream in the UK, no wonder builders make billions in profit.

None of those issues have anything to do with house building.

Those issues arise due to a lack of a nationally coordinated industrial strategy.

Sewage problems?

That goes back to a lack of investment going back 10+ years.

GP problems?

That goes back to not paying for more medical places at University to produce more GPs and Brexit.

Noticing a trend here?

Absolutely NONE of those things will be fixed in even 5 years. It will take at least 10 years to get improvements with a lot of investment.

The only real solution is housing DENSITY. That means you build UP. This then has less effects on the infrastructure.

But once again, the older NIMBYs block that too (and yes, they do tend to be older so the pearl clutching about ageism is getting a bit tiresome).

At a certain point, you basically have to ignore these people and get on with it. Thats were the UK is now.

What? nothing to do with House Building????

Whether you build up down or on a diagonal, you need infrastructure and a new sewage station for 200 houses doesn't take 5, let alone 10 years.... it could be built alongside the houses.... if there is no infrastructure and it really does take 10 years, then, i'm afraid houses cannot be built, unless you want to go back to the 1820s and open sewers.

As i also said, the planning system is completely pro the developer.

GP problems?

That goes back to not paying for more medical places at University to produce more GPs and Brexit

Yes i agree, the short-sightedness of UK Govt, esp over the last 10 years or so, is criminal.
Brexit has destroyed the UK.

But once again, the older NIMBYs block that too (and yes, they do tend to be older so the pearl clutching about ageism is getting a bit tiresome).

This is simply bollocks. There are extremely limited grounds for objections to housing developments and even these are often ignored.
Even if the LA turns down an application, it's generally upheld at appeal.
It's true the pearl clutchers write objections and complain to their MPs and councillors but they are ignored.
In my small, semi-rural area, not a single new housing estate application has been turned down in the 16 years I have lived here - and thousands of new houses (90% are 4/5 beds) have been built without single extra school doctors surgery, any leisure facilities or transport improvements.

This is my experience as well. Developers are not held to account when it comes to providing new infrastructure and services. The population of my home town has risen by over a quarter in the past 10 years and is expected to rise further in the coming decade. Over 5,000 new house were built since 2010 alone, while the number of schools, GP's and leisure facilities have largely remained the same.

Sadly, it would seem my experience of modern planning and house building is not unique.
In fact in my area, health, education and leisure are actively being cut.

One of the big issues I think is the UKs mental issue with apartments and I think that's because so many crappy ones were built or should I say- slung up. When we were in Copenhagen it was noticeable how lovely some of the central(ish) flat blocks were - obviously much roomier , many 3 bedders , balconies you could actually sit on , kids playgrounds (well kept) often nice communal gardens and close to amenities, we saw some going up near us and the soundproofing being done too . Small blocks of about 8 flats in a nice area- and these were mainly for the social housing market. I certainly wouldn't have turned my nose up at them.