The problem with Brexit is we didn't Brexit hard enough

[Middlelanehogger]

The EU itself was just the start.

But there are still more institutions which still influence our laws and make it impossible to actually achieve "taking back control".

If anything, we've left the trading bloc (which had economic benefits) but stayed in many of the legal institutions (which retain control over us).

So which body do we leave next - the ECHR? The ECJ? Keenly awaiting responses 😘

It's not the EU's fault that workers in the UK aren't better protected. Many EU countries don't allow zero-hour contracts, have higher sick pay, longer maternity leave, etc. The UK chose not to implement those rights. I personally still prefer tradespeople from the EU (even though their rates have gone up stupidly as well) because I've had a much better experience with them in terms of their reliability and quality of work. I'm sure I'm not the only one. With time more people will train to be qualified electricians, plumbers, bricklayers and prices will be more reflective of the skill and knowledge required.

Inequality has been about the same since 2000s but you’re right it rose after 70s

It peaked in 2008 and down slightly since

Inequality has decreased since Brexit.

I'm going to want to see some evidence before I believe that.

Club revenues across the Premier League are circa £5B a year, I'm actually okay with footballers getting a cut of that instead of their private equity owners.

Carry on.

• *@Middlelanehogger I actually don't object to people getting really rich. I object to people getting really poor in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. If sorting that out means that the very rich have a little bit less then I'm fine with that. How we achieve that is something that requires thought, but looking at maximum pay multiples would be a start, as would looking at UBI. It's ridiculous that it's possible for a family to have two adults working and still not be able to afford safe, warm, good quality housing without eating up all their income. Many countries in the EU do better, so clearly this isn't about the EU promoting capitalism and inequality. It's about national governments promoting these things.

People who do not understand the modern world think like this....and also people who think that the EU is only about trade or economics...

Good luck waiting for that evidence.

@Yolo12345 it's the time machine model of Brexit, isn't it? If only we roll everything back to 1972, all will be well. With no insight that the rest of the world isn't going to do that.

No it hasn't, income inequality in the UK has increased since 2016.

But this isn't down to brexit or being in the EU, its down to UK policies on taxation, investment in infrastructure, education and health etc.

this blame game is just another example of attributing UK specific problems to the EU and now Ukraine, Covid... immigration... when its us, the UK, that are responsible & when these are a distant memory, we'll find another reason to not take responsibility.

@Howpo exactly. Brexiters love blaming the EU for everything that was wrong in the UK since 1972 without taking into account that the same things were not going wrong elsewhere in the UK because we had sovereignty and our governments took the decisions that they took. And the UK electorate voted for them.

Also to add, while there was some wavering in the levels of wealth inequality between 2016 and now, this has mostly been attributed to the rich getting slighty poorer than the poor getting any richer (due to the impact of the fall in the value of the pound has had on their assets).

It also only relates to wealth inequality and not any other type of inequalities e.g., health, housing, education, etc.

it's the time machine model of Brexit, isn't it?

Rose tinted spectacles. Put them on and suddenly it’s 1969 again. Yay.

You'd better shut your pipe hole

I came into the 2016 referendum, thinking i'd vote Leave but it very quickly became clear that Vote Leave was about Wishlists i.e Could do's, Maybe's and blaming EU for UK caused problems.

Our roads are shite because govt's make a decision not to maintain them, our health service is shit because UK Governments don't fund it correctly, nor prioritise the training of UK citizens to work in it, we have the lowest number of scanners and diag equipment because UK Govt choses not to buy enough of them.... SFA to do with the EU.

CalistoNoSolo · 01/06/2023 08:54
Crikeyalmighty · 01/06/2023 08:27

Hmmm - having observed sewerage in the sea this weekend- south coast - I can only say bring back EU standards asap. UK is currently like the Wild West .

“Absolutely. The UK just doesn't work anymore”.

Agree, sailing dangerously close to becoming a failed state. Really fear for where we will be in 10/20 years.

I totally agree with your points, but the U.K. electorate didn’t have much of a choice in who to vote for for many years. Blair’s New Labour was as Tory as they come, and his era ushered in most of the problems we see today. Corbyn’s era was the only real alternative we’ve seen in the last 30 years. I’m not sure what Starmer’s version of Labour will bring but the signs aren’t great.

Really?

Blair was far removed from Thatcher and Majors Tory party e.g SureStart, Spending on NHS and min wage for starters.

There are/were alternatives, in England - Greens, LD's Ukip.. even with FPTP, if enough people vote for them, they will get MPs and as we saw in 2010, minor parties can form a Govt.

In what possible way are todays problems linked to Blair? on issues in the ME yes he holds some responsibility, along with Bush.

Is Blair stopping the Tories from Governing for the many and not the few? Did he make Sunak hand out billions in CV relief business loans to fraudsters? Did he vote in Truss? or BJ or give us Brexit?

Austerity has wrecked almost every aspect of the UK social welfare safety net, not least in the NHS and esp MH, the lack of care and capacity is purely down to UK Govt and its decisions on funding.

In what possible way are todays problems linked to Blair?

Hmm, starters for ten… mass push of training on to newly privatised universities instead of previous training on job and then forcing youngsters to pay for them; expansion of privatisation of national assets, which are now making huge profits for foreigners at our expense; mass expansion of buy to let causing generational inequality; mass deregulation of finance industry, pushing us into globalisation and beginning the financial corruption in London with foreign money, which also pushed up the house prices; immense number of unaccountable quangos handing out public money and destruction of traditional, more accountable councils and finances. Even the flagship things that are now seen as ‘goods’, surestart and minimum wage, have caused issues. Minimum wage devalued the wages of the next few ranks up, devaluing the work of those who were trying to work up to climb the ladder, while surestart was all too often handing out of public money to those who had done nothing to work for it, either at the bottom or the top end. I was working in the council at the time, paying taxes to see them disappear into the pockets of the same people who were sucking g me dry in the newly arrived private rent sector. Those of us who were there from poor backgrounds but working up remember it as a time of betrayal and ever moving goalposts. His time brought back the need for an inheritance and the class system: he brought in the two-tier society, those given everything by mum and dad, those given everything by the state, and those of us who had to work for everything were turned into mugs and fools.

i also remember the targeting culture. With horror.

Blair and Brown are responsible for the "everyone's on benefits" culture where people say "what's the point in working more hours/getting a promotion, they'll reduce my benefits".

I dont disagree that austerity was a problem, or was carried too far. I do disagree with the idea that it was purely down to the Tories. Money was running out before the credit crunch, it was 2006 when many public sectors started to find themselves having serious issues due to ongoing ‘efficiency savings’, while public money was pulled out of the system both directly by handouts and by impoverishing working people, thereby reducing tax takes. Blair was an attempt, always obviously fundamentally misguided, to marry up private sector funding while destroying traditional public sector funding: he was a neoliberalist through and through.

@RosaGallica The Tories privatised almost all public utils and state owned enterprises.
Expansion of Uni's? Even now, only around 37% of young people go to Uni, slightly higher than EU comparable countries.
The world has moved on from on the job training for hi tech industries, you want to work for Airbus, you need a degree, same with nursing/AHP in most developed countries, its a degree course.

I take it you are referring to PFI ? well, what was the alternative? say TB had put education and nhs investment on the national balance sheet, then where would the ability to borrow come from in 2008 and again in 2020?
Or he didn't spend on the NHS? its already a disaster zone, in many areas, its simply not functioning.
Now you can complain about targets but what was access to MH services or elective treatments like in the 2000's ? whatever the individual problems, the NHS worked.

Lab left debt to gdp at approx 65%, it is now 100% and markets are losing confidence in our abilities to pay it back, Gilt Yields are rocketing, costing us a fortune in debt repayment interest.

@Florenz On Benefits & Taxation, the UK has long had an issue with DHSS and now DWP/HMRC penalising people who work over certain hours, Blair didn't do much about it and neither have the Tories after over 13 years in power, longer than Blair was in for.
Income support has been about in the UK for over 50 years, funnily enough Edward Heath expanded it the most.

Bottom line is, after 2 terms in power, any Govt has to be held account for what their achieved, 10 years is plenty of time to put right things the previous lot messed up, the Tories have spent most of the last 13years cutting services and arguing about Brexit/EU, that in itself was caused by Austerity & the cuts to regional funding.

... i'll just add that the UK having the worlds highest tuition fee's helps no one and who trebled those? at the same time removing the mtce grant and added it to student debt.. oh and withdrew the Nurse bursary?

I wonder if thats helped with NHS staff recruitment..

There is a lot of sense in ensuring as many people as possible are dependent on the government. It makes them easier to control.

Hence the growing hysteria of people who aren't dependent on handouts because they have paid their mortgage and retired.

(You will of course notice how pensions are never, ever described as benefits or handouts. And even if you haven't, I have.)