The problem with Brexit is we didn't Brexit hard enough

[Middlelanehogger]

The EU itself was just the start.

But there are still more institutions which still influence our laws and make it impossible to actually achieve "taking back control".

If anything, we've left the trading bloc (which had economic benefits) but stayed in many of the legal institutions (which retain control over us).

So which body do we leave next - the ECHR? The ECJ? Keenly awaiting responses 😘

@Clavinova I'm not going to argue with you so will end on this point. The fact is why did a couple of intelligent people I know (one is a banker) then vote that way because they thoroughly expected a Norway type deal. Because it was clear they hadn't stated exactly what leave would mean- 'or ' people didn't think they actually meant it- it was advisory after all. Why not let people vote on the deal- because they knew they would lose.

are you involved with the Tory's in some way. ? Personally I wouldn't be out there defending this shit because when my old school Tory 83 year old FIL states he is totally disgusted and feels hugely lied too - the Tories have a problem.

Boris Johnson was not the PM - he could say whatever he liked at that point- do you seriously think everyone voting that way understood the commercial implications?and we don't have free trade access- it comes at a considerable price and in certain industries is practically unviable- particularly for small businesses- the company I work with had to pay ludicrous sums to be able to do so because of VAT requirements and gave to employ 2 extra people to deal with all the bumph- who are purely a cost.

No, it's for remainers to abuse them some more as usual. It's going quite well.

I see OP has had a cracking start to the day with a goady post and then buggering off to watch their handy work kick off in the usual fashion.

Whatever your intention OP, I’m delighted to hear from an actual ‘chosen one’ who was briefed what Brexit would mean in reality. Serious kudos, you probably had to sign the officials secrets act I’m guessing (?), since no one else seemingly had a scooby about how this was all going to play out. What else are you able to share? Or is it just, well, bollocks?

I'm sorry but it's the first time I've heard of this argument and, quite frankly, it has reached a new level of whataboutery and insanity.

So, according to your logic, those who provide an essential service (e.g. doctors, nurses, teachers, bus drivers) should be precluded from making a good enough living and are acceptable collateral damage so that those flogging 'stuff' can thrive.

I would also not put plumbing and bricklaying into the 'essential services' category, especially when they are mostly employed by property developers trying to flip houses and make a quick buck, landlords or the rich renovating pricey properties (a lot of them Remainers, by the way)

Oh, and as an aside, I have always had good experiences when hiring British tradesmen (reasonably priced and professional), I cannot say the same of other instances when it seemed I was dealing with cowboy chancers

@Marleeeene
I see OP has had a cracking start to the day

❤

Very disappointed in the lack of actionable recommendations on what to quit next! Aside from the great suggestion on page 2 on leaving Euromillions - will pass on to Suella next time I see her x

If there's one thing worse than our citizens being controlled by foreign courts it's our citizens being controlled by foreign money!

Crikeyalmighty
I'm not going to argue with you

I can see why - you only have anecdotal evidence to back up your points.

Boris Johnson was not the PM - he could say whatever he liked at that point

You were the one who mentioned Boris Johnson first - I have already posted what David Cameron said before the referendum (May/June 2016):

“What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.”

I am very happy to agree with my hon. Friend. “In” means we remain in a reformed EU; “out” means we come out. As the leave campaigners and others have said, “out” means out of the EU, out of the European single market, out of the Council of Minister - out of all those things -

are you involved with the Tory's in some way?

No, I'm not.

Other than the £214+m that was awarded to the D2N2 LEP by the European Structural Investment Fund for the 2014-2020 cycle, of course.

Never mind eh, I'm sure the tories will ensure that that funding is replaced adequately......oh wait, I see there's been a £21m drop in funding since that ended.

I guess if must be a really affluent working class area to be able to throw away millions in business/ community support each year.

How much of that £214 million actually ended up in the pockets of working-class people? I'm going to guess approximately £0 million. Or maybe 1 or 2.

Structural EU funding kept Cornish leisure centres open and is, even now, building a new A30 dual carriageway in the county.

I assume working class people use these things?

Well, they don't use the leisure centres, 3 have been shut down in the last 2 years.

Personally I wouldn't be out there defending this shit because when my old school Tory 83 year old FIL states he is totally disgusted and feels hugely lied too - the Tories have a problem

The latest YouGov/Times voting intention poll shows the Conservatives on 25% of the vote (no change from our previous survey on 17-18 May) to Labour's 43% (also no change)

Its based on peoples lived experiences.. so the condition of roads, the strikes and of course the NHS

The problem with Brexshit is that there was ever a referendum and that we bothered to brexit at all.

Clavinova is correct.
Cameron said it would be impossible to copy the Norwegian model because it meant accepting freedom of movement.
He said it would create a decade of uncertainty.
"Far from not banging on about Europe we'd be banging on about Europe for 10 years."
He also said it would leave the Government with a £20-40 billion black hole in its finances.

So actually Brexit voters got exactly what they wanted.
Uncertainty and financial loss.

@LastTrainEast asserted that:
"The 'morons' you refer to would be most of the people in the UK. Perhaps your GP, your neighbours, even family and friends.
We had a referendum you see and by voting in it you accepted it as valid."

When the Referendum was announced, we were all told that it was an "advisory" exercise, and this was the wording used in the European Referendum Bill/ Act of 2015-16 - so not legally binding. Even Nigel Farage accepted that this was in fact the case, going on to say “I would now wish to see constitutional change to make referendums binding”.

Are you suggesting that if we didn't see it as a valid exercise we should just have abstained from voting?!

The UK's population is around 67 million. Only 17m voted to leave the EU. That is not a majority. Even going by the number of people registered to vote (46m) it's not a majority (which would be 23m+)

Shamefully, some of the groups of people whose lives have been thrown into utter turmoil by the result were not allowed to take part in the vote - I'm referring to EU citizens who had made a life for themselves here in the UK, and UK citizens who had made a life for themselves elsewhere in the EU.

Any obviously everyone who was under 18 at the time of the vote was also disenfranchised, even though it's their freedom of movement, their opportunities for study and employment abroad that has been impacted, to their detriment...

I also went on to say to another poster than some of those who I know voted leave have worked in the EU and being on inside knew more than most the truth of how the membership worked, the corruption, the waste of money and so on. I don't think you can say those people voted leave did so based on a campaign now can you

That is clear - on the SM question

God forbid people are actually paid proper wages for their skills and work and not have their wages held down in some sadistic race to the bottom.

Is that what you teach your children, that if someone disagrees with you or has a different opinion you call them morons etc.

Personally I teach my children critical thinking skills - and that if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

@Dreamstate sorry I totally disagree. Not on people being paid proper wages but people charging you £150 for half an hours work etc - or 3 times what they would have previously charged for an extension etc. itsall very reminiscent of Harry Enfields Loads of money character.there's a massive difference between being paid the right skilled rate and exploitation of the public -- I'm most certainly not into a race to the bottom either.

@Florenz I'm having to laugh at your sudden concern for the pockets of working class people- that's not what development funds etc are for but you know that . Maybe if you are concerned about the actual pockets of working class people you should have been more concerned that out the EU means less chance of multi nationals bringing well paid jobs to the regions and more chance of those already there departing. You keep saying working class because it gives the idea that the Tory's are behind them- working class covers a lot of income levels - I know plenty of very comfortably off working class people too - it's not all whippets and Asda!! And they aren't all anti EU or pro Tory either-- just the UKIP element in very particular places.

I know that area well. I wish we could use your reasoning to leave the United Kingdom’s government.

You’ve been sold a lemon if you think the issues there are all to be blamed on the EU. The major issue is lack of work, low opportunities, low wages, high housing costs, high training costs and high population. Almost all of which are due to the decline in U.K. industries and the United Kingdom’s governance from the Thatcher years onwards.

Back to our simple evidence-base questions really - what has changed and improved outside of the EU for the East Midlands? I really don’t see any improvement in a country dependent on the good will of India and in hock to the USA.

And this is where your ignorance shows. You state £150 for 30 mins work right, you're basing amount of money earned by time spent, not on the type of work done or whether its specialised work etc. You then go on to say 3 times what they charged before for an extension...well again cost of materials have gone up so that will have a factor in price increases.

Do you think trades people should suck up the cost of materials going up or do you think the person wanting an extension should pay the actual price for materials not a price from previously? Do you walk into tescos and say I want to pay for milk that I paid 5 months ago? I don't think so.

Do you think these people deserve a payrise for their time to do the work? Plenty of workers in private companies want payrises year after year for their time to do their jobs? Why is it okay for them to be paid more for their time than trades people?

That is what you are basically saying and why I said that people deserve to be paid properly for their jobs.

Otherwise why don't you learn a trade and then charge people the price you think they should be getting and see whether you feel valued in your trade job for your skills and time.

Truss was a bit better than Johnson. She thought the Aussie negotiator was a bit inexperienced and could be a pushover. So she forced him to sit on an uncomfortable chair during meetings.

But...it turned out he had negotiated a big trade deal with the USA a few years ago. Still at least she tried. So did May in fairness. At least she actually showed up for talks.

Well you cant really measure exactly where it ends up (especially in terms of such a loose definition as working class people), but as they publish details online about where the money is spent we do know that all of it ended up going to fund projects and initiatives in the area, with £54m being invested in 2020 alone. Since 2014 they've secured and invested c£550m in business and community support, investing in projects like the Nottingham City Hub, the rail research and innovation centre, the growth in N2 town centres project, the Midlands engine investment fund, Nuclear AMRC Midlands, the Youth Employment Inniative and the SmartParc project to name a few. All of which has created over 18,500 jobs, with smartparc expected to create an additional 5,000 more, and supported over 17,000 businesses in the area. I'd guess more than a few working class people have benefited from that investment fund.

I'm not saying that none of the above would not have happened without EU funding, but I'd be surprised if any organisation can just walk away from c40% of their overall funding over a decade without impacting their ability to deliver support.

But maybe you know different, is the area so well off and successful that it can turn it's nose up at £214m every 6 years or so?