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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be utterly sick of casual sexism.

83 replies

PurposefulBear · 31/05/2023 10:02

Honestly, I’m just sick of it. I feel like I have to spend my life proving to people that…

a) I have a serious job (that just happens to be in a male dominated world… in which the men I work with NEVER make me feel second best, it’s people outside it who seem to think it’s impossible for a women to really be achieving something aspirational or impactful)

b) I have a valid opinion on things and my decisions are just as valid as a man’s decisions. I find that the whole latent sexism spills over into so many different areas.

tbf… a lot of this comes from my in laws, especially FIL and BIL. My DH is lovely, but he’s in a job that’s seen as highly successful and he gets paid accordingly. When it comes to our lives though, I run and do everything because that’s the dynamic that ends up working best for us, I don’t mind it too much, he helps as much as he can and is a great DH/DF.

But even yesterday, talking to a complete stranger when in mum mode (ie with the kids)… the conversation turns to “so what does your husband do”… not a single question about what I do, as if it doesn’t matter, it’s just pocket money. whenever I talk to people it’s so often “oh so how is DH’s job going”, excuses for me having to manage the mental load being “oh he must be so stressed and tired”.

I don’t blame DH for this at all, it’s just seems to be that latent sexism is still everywhere. That somehow it’s ok for mums to be worked to the bone, but for their jobs still to be seen as second best to the wider world, as long as men get the recognition they deserve for all the effort they put in and the difference or reward they take out.

Rant over, is it just me??

OP posts:
SpringNotSprung · 31/05/2023 11:00

When builders/workmen come in and address questions to DH, he usually says "please speak to my wife, she deals with these things".

Decades ago when I was a SAHM for a few years there were often pass aggressive comme to from other mothers who worked. "Oh you're so lucky you don't need to work". I used to have to bite my tongue not to say "oh it isn't luck, I had a successful career before the DC, and owned my own house before I met DH". The implication was always that I was able not to work because DH was successful, rather than I had been.

It's there on so many levels. My 87 year old mother doesn't think men should do housework, my 87 year old MIL doesn't think women should drive long distances, the failure to address womens' pain relief in the NHS, the poor post natal services afforded women.

Original poster
PurposefulBear · 31/05/2023 11:04

Izzabird · 31/05/2023 10:59

Of course casual sexism remains -- I don't come across it in my workplace in terms of daily attitudes, but as a very non-mobile, hierarchical career structure, women are still under-represented at the most senior levels, though it's changing, gradually.

I do see it with my ILs (and my parents, actually) so there's an extent to which the attitudes are generational and social-class-related in terms of who is spouting them in my own life -- I married into a WC family of early school leavers in which women always stay at home, and working mothers are a sign a of financial stress and a 'man not being able to keep you', and even then it's a matter of a 'little night time job'.

My demanding, professional, not-especially well-remunerated career puzzles everyone, bar DH, who took the same career pathway (how we met) until he decided to change fields to something entirely different (and very high-profile), and who, despite his 'big job' in a deeply macho, male-dominated industry, is fully on board in terms of daily parenting, cooking and running the house. He doesn't get a free pass because of his important, well-paid job.

What I find notable about your post, OP, is that you decry casual sexism and then in the same breath say that you do everything in the house. Why? Is this contributing to your annoyance about your IL's sexism?

Fair question, it’s more about practicality. He simply isn’t at home during the part of the day when the majority of housework and childcare gets done as he has to be at work. He does his best to make up for it when he can but that time is relatively limited. We’re both more than happy to pay for help to bridge that gap but there’s only so much equality we can achieve under our circumstances.

OP posts:
murasaki · 31/05/2023 11:05

@BitOutOfPractice heh, this happens to us with cricket. We were at the hotel bar pre a test at trent Bridge, and the men all tried to talk to DP who steered them to me. They weren't buying it for a bit but suggested meeting at the Larwood amd Voce bar the next day. Ah, the 1932 body line bowlers, said I. Back in your sexist box, gentlemen.

murasaki · 31/05/2023 11:06

We are equal ops on football, but cricket is very much my thing.

Greenpeasnwham · 31/05/2023 11:24

I’m an artist. So much so it pays the bills, and has for most of my life. not a ‘hobby’.

im really happy some females don’t come across sexism in the workplace or their daily life, but, honestly why would you then question whether it exists? Is your example in some way a universal truth? With all the readily accessible research and evidence to the contrary? Or are you just being goady?
I have genuinely been told to use the abbreviation of my name as then, if my photo isn’t in the artist bio, I will sell more work as assumption is my work is from a male artist. I have been groped, spoken down to had my own work explained to me and asked to fetch a drink (assumed waiting staff) at my own opening nights. I’ve had my bio edited to make it less about being a woman. I’ve been paid less, had my wall space cut when I’ve been present because a male artist ‘needs it’. (He was less well established and sold for less). Women artists struggle to be recognised, struggle to be exhibited or platformed (if they are, often it’s as a ‘women artist’) and most certainly make much much less money.

if you believe me then it exists. If you believe stats around pay gap. Around attitude. Around abuse. Around use of sexiest language. If you just raise your head to look globally at anything. (Although the uk has plenty of examples perhaps they are not technicolour enough for some)? The implication that ‘I’ve gone looking for it’ is obviously part of how it continues to exist. People who think like that about other women describing their experience are part of the problem being described.

GiveupHQ · 31/05/2023 11:28

BitOutOfPractice · 31/05/2023 10:47

Oh how I laughed at the very first response to the OP's thread being to dismiss her own experience as irrational!

OP I totally hear you about careers, home management, child care etc.

I'll give another example, in a pub chatting about football with a bloke last week. He keeps addressing comments / questions to DP. DP isn't a big football fan so he kept saying "I have no idea, she's the expert!" And still the bloke just ignored me, kept talking to DP, even though I had struck up the conversation. I gave up in the end.

And there we have it. The hyperbole that always soils these discussions

i did not dismiss her own experience as irrational

I used the word I 4x in my very short post

Original poster
PurposefulBear · 31/05/2023 11:34

Greenpeasnwham · 31/05/2023 11:24

I’m an artist. So much so it pays the bills, and has for most of my life. not a ‘hobby’.

im really happy some females don’t come across sexism in the workplace or their daily life, but, honestly why would you then question whether it exists? Is your example in some way a universal truth? With all the readily accessible research and evidence to the contrary? Or are you just being goady?
I have genuinely been told to use the abbreviation of my name as then, if my photo isn’t in the artist bio, I will sell more work as assumption is my work is from a male artist. I have been groped, spoken down to had my own work explained to me and asked to fetch a drink (assumed waiting staff) at my own opening nights. I’ve had my bio edited to make it less about being a woman. I’ve been paid less, had my wall space cut when I’ve been present because a male artist ‘needs it’. (He was less well established and sold for less). Women artists struggle to be recognised, struggle to be exhibited or platformed (if they are, often it’s as a ‘women artist’) and most certainly make much much less money.

if you believe me then it exists. If you believe stats around pay gap. Around attitude. Around abuse. Around use of sexiest language. If you just raise your head to look globally at anything. (Although the uk has plenty of examples perhaps they are not technicolour enough for some)? The implication that ‘I’ve gone looking for it’ is obviously part of how it continues to exist. People who think like that about other women describing their experience are part of the problem being described.

This is awful. Over what period of time has it happened, has anything changed and is anything different from when you first started out?

I really feel in despair sometimes, particularly when we think we’ve really made progress there are so many places in which we haven’t.

I don’t mind people challenging my experience and I didn’t feel it has been dismissed, after all I came on here to share my experience which is also different to other people, but fair point that we all have to recognise it exists before we can claim it doesn’t, even if that’s not our experience.

OP posts:
brunettemic · 31/05/2023 11:45

I don’t personally experience this (I’m the higher earner and people I assume realise/have worked this out) but I know it can happen. I’ve always assumed the people who ask what your husband does are stay at home mums/don’t work and assume others are the same so it’s not necessarily malice, more just asked from their perspective.

blahblahblah1654 · 31/05/2023 11:47

Can't say I notice or care about these things. Maybe if I looked for and focused on comments like this I would notice them. Don't feel you need to prove anything to others.

Greenpeasnwham · 31/05/2023 11:49

In answer…yes things have changed, more in place to consciously push back…and lots of great people trying to change things. Less tolerance for the physical stuff. Less acceptance it’s ‘just how it is’. More interest in specifically women’s art.
The culture in the art world is still overridingly in favour of male artists though, and I don’t see that changing much. The difference in representation and reward is huge.

anythinginapinch · 31/05/2023 11:50

FIL and BIL being the main culprits in your OP, OP, I do think that family/dad/bro ties will be what's at play when they focus on DHs work and not yours

I also note that "it suits you as a family best" (Or words to that effect) that DH does serious job and you do less paid work plus home stuff. You know why this feels like it "suits your family best"? Gender stereotypes, could be one factor.

Original poster
PurposefulBear · 31/05/2023 11:59

anythinginapinch · 31/05/2023 11:50

FIL and BIL being the main culprits in your OP, OP, I do think that family/dad/bro ties will be what's at play when they focus on DHs work and not yours

I also note that "it suits you as a family best" (Or words to that effect) that DH does serious job and you do less paid work plus home stuff. You know why this feels like it "suits your family best"? Gender stereotypes, could be one factor.

Very simple… I could never earn what he does! Although I could earn very very well if I committed to a similar workload, but we both agree that wouldn’t work well for us as a family and at least with his job we can retire early and live a very good life. I’m proud of him, not jealous, he feels the same about me. We respect each other, it’s other people who make me feel this way.

OP posts:
bonfirebash · 31/05/2023 12:00

I work in a male dominated industry
The phone has an options menu, so say press 1 for technical advice
If myself or a female colleague answers the phone, it will always be a male that says "put me through to technical" because they presume we are reception never please or hello
Male colleagues don't have this issue at all
Female callers will sometimes ask "I need some tech advice, is this the right option" but male callers just presume we are receptionists
Angry

coxesorangepippin · 31/05/2023 12:01

Not just you.

It's completely ingrained

Hoppinggreen · 31/05/2023 12:03

Time of the month OP?

BitOutOfPractice · 31/05/2023 12:04

If you don’t read both of your posts on this thread as dismissive (and snippy) @GiveupHQ then you’re reading different posts to me 🤷‍♀️

BitOutOfPractice · 31/05/2023 12:05

Hoppinggreen · 31/05/2023 12:03

Time of the month OP?

😂

perhaps she needs to book a spa day.

Original poster
PurposefulBear · 31/05/2023 12:13

Hoppinggreen · 31/05/2023 12:03

Time of the month OP?

😂

OP posts:
5128gap · 31/05/2023 12:15

I don't know why you're attributing your ILs attitude to their social class. Sexist stereotypes are equally likely to be found amongst the MC who can better afford the lifestyle that perpetuates them. For every WC family who take pride in a man's ability to 'keep' his wife, you'll find the equivalent MC man who seemingly requires a full time SAH wife to enable his big six figure job. I agree sexist attitudes are everywhere but we don't need to muddy the waters by chucking some classist ones in there with them.

LeroyJenkinssss · 31/05/2023 12:20

things are improving but slowly. I’ve been asked the “who is looking after the children” on work trips when the other male parents haven’t been. How good DH is looking after the kids as a SAHP when no one is talking about how good the SAHM are.

the assumption that I’m a nurse, or more junior to the male doctor despite me looking every year of my 40 years and them looking twelve Grin. My male colleagues are mostly fine but there are moments and I am the only senior female in my department.

im glad that there are some that don’t recognise this scenario but it doesn’t invalidate those of us who unfortunately experience it.

chocolateisavegetable · 31/05/2023 12:27

Not work related, but we have a builder here at the moment who insists on “helping” every time I go out in the car, but not when DH does 😡. I’ve been driving longer than DH and the car has parking sensors anyway 😂

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 31/05/2023 12:51

I think the fact that many posters can't even be bothered to read that you've specifically said NOT at work shows how dismissive people can be when they don't think a situation applies to them.

But I'm sure, as the hundreds of posts from women working their fingers to the bone while their husband gets pats on the back for picking the kids up from school, there are many many women who feel the same.

GiveupHQ · 31/05/2023 13:06

BitOutOfPractice · 31/05/2023 12:04

If you don’t read both of your posts on this thread as dismissive (and snippy) @GiveupHQ then you’re reading different posts to me 🤷‍♀️

You are the only want that raised it as such 🤷‍♀️

Wednesdayonline · 31/05/2023 13:10

Yep, so often people will direct questions to DH. Workmen, at restaurants, estate agents, strangers asking about work, delivery drivers.
At work my direct supervisor is extremely traditional and we often get the "well women like..." "you'll know this because you're women" etc etc. Even when I question him on it he can't see it, "well no not like that but it's just women are different to men like that". Oddly it's also sometimes against his own gender in that he thinks emotional men aren't "real" men. Even more oddly he is extremely supportive of women in the workplace and progressing my career. He just refuses to acknowledge his prejudice.
I've never faced this in work before him.

honeylulu · 31/05/2023 13:14

Yes casual sexism is everywhere. You just need to keep challenging it and try not to let it get to you too much because that's then a further "loss" to you and not the sexist person. It's annoying but the efforts to push back will make small incremental differences. We saw my parents at the weekend and they asked my husband all about his job. Didn't mention mine at all. I'm the higher earner by quite some way. My mother frets that my husband will "go off" because I don't look after him properly and wear jogging bottoms around the house (gasp!) I just laugh at her and remind her that he's still here after 28 years so he must be happy enough!