Do you find this offensive?

[Meeting]

The Theatre Royal Stratford East is putting on a show and have blocked out 2 dates as "Blackout" nights where they encourage (but I don't think plan to enforce) that only black people may attend these performances.

I saw them discussing it on Piers Morgan and neither of the guests advocating for it were able to convince me that this type of segregation was at all beneficial.

Does anybody think this is a good idea? Personally I think segregation based on skin colour has no place in society, no matter who benefits from it. But I'm interested to hear from others who might away it differently?

You are using the language of Critical Race Theory which is based on American society, legal system and history and has been criticised for encouraging segregation.

I have done my best to educate myself but haven't found robust evidence that CRT is applicable in the same way to British society.

I thought I was saying it was OK for minority groups to create space where they are centred, as @TeaKlaxon so eloquently put it, @TreadLight. I haven’t studied critical race theory - I was simply expressing my opinions.

But black people are different! They have different experiences that shape their engagement with the world.

There is a tendency among some people to think that equality necessitates us to deny the differences among us. Different people have different experiences, they often have different communities, they often have different cultural reference points. They shouldn’t have to deny all of that just to have equality. They shouldn’t have to pretend that they are just the same as white people.

I am slightly surprised about how much of this thread could equally apply to gay people - there is also a strain of thinking that gay people should be just the same as straight people, when in fact our differences exist and should not have to be denied in order to have equal treatment.

Can you explain where I said that? It's not what I think at all.

You should read Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race.

Trying to shoehorn critical race theory in here is a red herring.

The only relevant question is whether minority groups with a history of oppression, and ongoing experiences of discrimination, hostility or exclusion, should be free to create spaces that are focused on those groups, rather than focused on the majority group.

I am slightly surprised about how much of this thread could equally apply to gay people
I'm not - threads with bigotry in always follow the exact same argument and pattern, whether it be racism, Islamophobia, homophobia etc -

That's both inaccurate and offensive. Name calling and ad hominem attacks are the refuge of those without the ability to debate intelligently. Playground level argument rather than informed discussion. Sad really. Where is your evidence of bigotry? Or Islamaphobia et al? Receipts please.

@ HeartBrokenWife "No-one should be excluded on the the basis of their skin colour which is an immutable characteristic and one that’s not chosen and cannot be identified into or out of."

Outside of people are being asked to consider not booking, not being excluded from doing so: Race of all forms 'is an immutable characteristic and one that’s not chosen and cannot be identified into or out of.'

Some people can lie about what they are, usually to survive, though they pay their own price with dissonance. Some can lie to take advantage as racefakers and don't seem to suffer for it. But no one can identify in and out, they can only live with passing for something different, or lie about who they are, and obviously it's harder for some to get away with any of that than others.

Would you object to Maori people asking other races to not book one night to discuss issues around their race in a play, or is it because 'Black people' are grouping together identifying by communal skin coloration rather than a specific race?

I think there is a stronger argument for gay spaces. This country, until very recently, legislated against and criminalised gay people. They were excluded, by law, from certain jobs. The remnants of those homophobic laws still exist in society.

This country hasn't had statutory racism in the same way it has had statutory homophobia, certainly not in living memory.

You’ve still not answered the question of whether you extend your objection to this so called ‘racial segregation’ (a deeply offensive characterisation by the way) to other minority groups.

Do you object to gay clubs?

But racism isn’t just statutory.

This country has had, and still has, widespread racism.

You are right that it had - and still has - homophobia.

But it makes no sense to be fine with gay spaces but not spaces for people of colour.

Many people on this thread have stated their race.

Agreed, in all respects.

But the language being used by those in favour of separate viewings of the play for different races comes from Critical Race Theory. Words such as oppressed and oppressor. Lived experience etc. A key premise of Critical Race Theory is the statutory racism in American laws which came about after the end of slavery, and led to segregation.

We didn't have similar laws in this country. We tended to legislate against Jews and Catholics. I have not found (and I have tried) a sound argument that the key tenants of CRT are applicable in this country.

We have our own problems with racism, but they are very different to the American problems, and just piggy backing on the back of American initiatives (which this black out production is doing) risks causing more harm than good.

Is it UK didn't have segregation by law like we did here in the United States but you also didn't have any laws against it until the mid-60s, isn't that correct? As such there were places that banned people of certain races because they were allowed to. It's not exactly the same thing but it's not that different either.

Regardless, this situation is not segregation as some posters have asserted. It is one night or possibly two where black people are encouraged to attend but it's clear that anyone is permitted to attend. As I said in my post early on in the thread I wouldn't personally be comfortable attending cuz I feel like I wouldn't belong there but that is partially my own personal feeling and wanting to be sensitive to the feelings of the people that want to attend this particular performance.

”Can you explain where I said that? It's not what I think at all.”

@HeartBrokenWife - I was responding to you saying this:

”No-one should be excluded on the the basis of their skin colour which is an immutable characteristic and one that’s not chosen and cannot be identified into or out of.”

…so even if you accept people might need to exclude some people, in order to provide a safe space for themselves and other members of their minority group, they shouldn’t be allowed to. A distinction without a difference, imo.

But you don’t have to apply critical race theory to recognise some basic facts…

1. Racism existed - even if not on a statutory basis.
2. Racism continues to exist.
3. Some of those with a shared experience of that racism would like a space that is centred on their community and their experience.

This theatre is just one example of this. The only question seems to be whether 3 is reasonable or not. I have seen no compelling reasons that it is not - and I don’t think it is for white people to determine if it is or is not anyway.

But I definitely can’t see the logic for distinguishing gay spaces and community from racial minority spaces and community.

I think it's disingenuous to say that being 'asked to consider not booking' is the same as being welcomed. I have no skin (of whatever colour, and I've not stated my race on this thread) in the game re this play in particular, so I am not missing out on anything personally, but as I have said numerous times now, I am against the re-introduction of the colour bar. It didn't play out well previously, so why would anyone think it would work out well this time?

As for Maori people, I don't know any Maoris and have no particular views about them because of my ignorance of their customs etc. My now deceased aunt and uncle were long time residents of New Zealand and they got on very well with the Maori people so I think I'd like them too, or at least there's no reason to assume that I wouldn't. I like most people, but I don't judge them based on colour or race. I'm not against any groups meeting because they share certain characteristics, but I don't think that publicly funded events should apply a colour bar ..... ever. A lot of black people, and quite possibly Maori people for all I know, agree with me. As I am trying to point out, there is a diversity of views and all voices should be heard, not just those with which you agree. The posters calling me various types of phobe are being incredibly offensive and they seem to have little insight into their own behaviour.

Do I object to gay clubs? No. Why would I? What I object to is the re-introduction of the colour bar. It is ridiculously simple to understand what I am saying. I am anti racist and do not want to return to a time when being racist is ok.

So according to many posters on this thread it’s simultaneously NOT a minority group’s responsibility to ‘educate’ majority groups AND white people are advised to listen more and speak less? How confusing is that? Can one of the race segregators please explain how we can learn without asking? Particularly since we’re told we don’t care about the feelings of minority groups unless we ‘educate’ ourselves, and the education can only come from the minority group itself! Makes zero sense folks 🤷🏻‍♀️

//

Taking a punt as a white person that what is meant by "listen more " is to perhaps be proactive to listen to black voices whether that be through listening more in conversations (real life and online) but actively seek out voices on the media to listen to - black literature, film, music and voices of authority.

Ahhh x post

Do you believe everything you read? You're being naïve if you do. People on the internet may be telling the truth, or they may be lying. Look it up if you don't believe me ...

@TreadLight You can add Rom, to races legislated against. Historically it was direct and people where simply imprisoned and hanged for the crime of being Rom and not having got themselves out of England, associating with could also get you hanged. (hilariously the crime of pretending to be one got one man hung too!)

Now it's indirect, the latest act being last year, leaving those without sites facing everything from prison, £2500 fine, or homes confiscated. (Irish Travelers are also targeted under this legislation)

So gay people can create their own spaces, centred on their community and their experience. I agree.

Why do you think it’s acceptable for gay people but not black people?

I cannot believe people are still reaching the conclusion that -

A production about a petty horrific black experience which actually happened fairly recently in history, being encouraged for 2 nights out of 30 to be a audience of majority black faces

Is the same as

Racial segregation

Holy shit

This is why this event is important

So the exhortation to white people to avoid booking on certain nights is making you feel as though you can't go because you wouldn't belong? So, should we re-introduce racial segregation or not? As a society we should be aiming for unity rather than separation. Of course people can gather in whatever groups they want, but no-one should be excluded from certain aspects of public life because of the colour of their skin.