to think if EU citizens can vote in local elections if they live here and if Commonwealth Citizens can vote in General Elections,

[cakeorwine]

then what's the issue with EU citizens who live here, pay taxes here etc voting in General Elections?

I don't here people complaining about EU citizens voting in local elections.

But the proposal for EU citizens to vote in general elections seems to have upset the Tories. For some reason.

Who can vote in UK elections? - House of Commons Library (parliament.uk)

Keir Starmer to hand vote to millions of EU nationals if Labour wins next election | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

Under the plans, migrants who live permanently and pay taxes in the UK would be able to vote in general elections for the first time.
The move is expected to enfranchise around 3.4 million EU nationals who have "settled status" in Britain
Meanwhile, 1.4 million 16 and 17-year-olds would also be able to go to the ballot box in line with Scotland and Wales.

I have friends who work for civil service😂 but they can't vote. That sounds ridiculous doesn't it if you think about it.

Yeah. I’m a registrar with no vote 😅

Because it is very expensive
Because I have ties to my home country and it is difficult to maintain a second citizenship
Because after the Windrush scandal or current immigration politics I do not trust this government to change rules as they like it.

I don't mind the rules that only UK citizen can vote, I have issues with the fact that Commonwealth citizen can vote. Especially if they are only hear for a short period. I worked with plenty of Australians and New Zealand ones who love the UK - for 3-4 years while colleagues from EU countries are here for a decade or two, have families (often with UK spouses), children and a mortgage

1. You are deflecting, 3 times I've asked you to comment on why you think labour considering proposals to extend voting rights is worse than the tories actually implementing measures that they now admit were designed to manipulate election results to favour them, and 3 times you've ignored it and went off on your own rant. Will you answer this time or deflect again??

2. Any eligible person from any of the 54 commonwealth countries can vote in all UK elections, they just need to register. Any eligible person from any 27 EU can vote in some elections (including local council and devolved government), they just need to register. Out of 195 countries on the planet citizens of 81 (not including the home nations here) can vote in "UK elections on UK matters". Bit weird that you knew this yet still ranted on about how "The only people who should vote on matters regarding their own countries are the citizens of those countries" don't you think?

3. Mmmm, the fact that you're very bothered by the idea of allowing a South Korean citizen living in the UK to vote in UK elections, even going to the extent of calling the very idea treacherous, but are apparently not bothered by the fact a South African citizen living in the UK can vote in all UK elections does shoot some very large holes in your argument I'm afraid.

4. Eligible citizens from 84 countries don't have to do that now though....

5. No, I know there's no requirement for that, I was insinuating that if you have such an issue with non-uk citizens being able vote in UK elections you'd surely also be unhappy about UK citizens who plan it leave the UK imminently have a vote too?

6. I'm sorry I missed this from your earlier post I'm not quite sure why you keep insisting JRM is my poster boy. Is it because your mindset is so narrow that you think if someone doesn't support labour, then they must be a Tory? Thats very typical of die hard labour voters isn't it. but to answer...

I insist he's your poster boy because of your constant deflections when I ask you to comment on his admission today.

I'm also very sorry to tell you that I've never voted Labour in my life, and most likely never will. Really narrow mindset to think if someone doesn't fawn over the tories that they must be a die hard labour voter isn't it?

Thebestwaytoscareatory
I'm also fairly sure it wasn't [in Labour's] last manifesto either

here;
"We will oversee the largest extension of the franchise in generations, reducing the voting age to 16, giving full voting rights to all UK residents, making sure everyone who is entitled to vote can do so by introducing a system of automatic voter registration"

They could vote in Scotland.

I just wish that more people voted in general. Current turnout is about 60 - 70% and varies massively between constituencies.

Thebestwaytoscareatory goodness, you are over invested. How long did it take you to type out that rant.

It will disappoint you to know I'm not going to spend my evening debating / arguing with you, after you spent so long on that, you little ranter. 😂😉

I think people from any country, not just EU, should be able to vote in the UK provided they meet the requirements to qualify for British Citizenship. They should not need to have successfully applied for Citizenship* *to be able to vote. https://www.gov.uk/british-citizenship
This would put the emphasis on the current requirements and getting them right, but would not force anybody to give up their citizenship of their original country if that country does not allow dual citizenship, or to pay the very expensive fees. It might also tighten up on Commonwealth voting rules that seem rather lax at the moment.

People who leave the UK can currently vote here for 15 years after leaving. Non-doms can retain their tax status for a maximum of 15 years (but after a further 5 years abroad can start on another 15 years). These should be cut by a similar amount. I would opt for 6 years for both categories, with no repeat for non-dom status.

Regarding allowing 16yo to vote, I am not in favour. If this was already allowed, it would mean thousands of kids who are currently 14 (eg. born October 2008) could vote in the next election. These kids were only 11 when Boris was voted in at the last election, and they would still be months short of taking GCSEs when they voted. They are too young.

If the age has to lowered, then I would prefer it to be tied to the school year eg. kids can vote after 1st September following their 16th birthday (ie. when they start further education)

Regarding allowing 16yo to vote, I am not in favour. If this was already allowed, it would mean thousands of kids who are currently 14 (eg. born October 2008) could vote in the next election. These kids were only 11 when Boris was voted in at the last election, and they would still be months short of taking GCSEs when they voted. They are too young

It seemed to work well for Scotland and there was a lot of engagement with young people in the referendum.

Wales allow young people to vote as well in their elections.

A lot of anomalies in this country when it comes to voting.

You can vote in local elections if you are a EU citizen but if you are 16, you can't vote in the Parliamentary elections, but you can if you live in Scotland and want to vote in the Scottish Parliament elections, and if you live abroad but you are British and haven't returned home for 15 years, you can still vote and you can also vote if you have a passport from a Commonwealth country or Ireland and qualify to vote* And if you are a legally resident foreign national, then you can register to vote for Scottish and Welsh elections, provided you're old enough.

*I think that's all right but there may be mistakes

but would not force anybody to give up their citizenship of their original country if that country does not allow dual citizenship, or to pay the very expensive fees

This is hardly showing a commitment to the UK. Making the step of paying for / giving up original citizenship at least demonstrates an ongoing commitment to the country.

Sorry but you clearly never had to even think about making this decision.

We thought hard and long after Brexit what we wanted to do. We already lived here for 16 years, had jobs, a mortgage, raising a family and made very close friends. In most ways, the UK was more home than the country of our birth.

But there is something about belonging to the country you were born and grew up in. It's not about committing to the one you live in now, it's about severing ties. That's not easy to do. And I am sure we wouldn't have done the step and applied for naturalisation if we couldn't have kept the citizenship of our home country.

I am pretty sure we would have made plans to move back.

But not allowing dual citizenship isn't the UK's fault. I can't hold dual citizenship either but this is entirely down to my home country not allowing this, the Uk would be fine with it. The fact that I value citizenship of an EU country more than being able to vote in British GE is my decision, I might change my opinion about this at some point in the future, but I wouldn't demand of the UK to make up for my country's refusal to allow dual citizenhip.

I do accept that it's a hard decision potentially to make. I still think it's one that should be made. No I haven't had to make that decision because I am a UK citizen. But if I went elsewhere I wouldn't expect to have the rights without the commitment.

But building a life here (in my case with years and years of work and paying taxes, volunteering, a husband and a mortgage) IS a commitment. Giving up your original nationality is indeed a huge step to take, and FWIW for dual nationality to happen, both countries need to agree, it is not as simple as “oh yeah, the UK allows it but your home country doesn’t”. It has to be an agreement because there is a difference between having dual citizenship and having two citizenships (eg if you nationalise as British and then ask Spain to let you keep your Spanish nationality, that is not dual citizenship because for some effects each country will ignore your other nationality).

A lot to think about before making that commitment then. I understand it's not easy. But not being easy isn't a reason not to do it, if you want the benefits that go with it. 🤷‍♀️

But it as simple as that @WonkyFeelings My home country doesn't allow to keep citizenship when you gain another one (different if children are born with parents of different nationalities, like for my children), this is a problem that I have with my home country, it's not the responsibility of the Uk to sort out on my behalf. And non-citizens can't vote in GEs in my country either, and I couldn't vote in the two other countries where I lived, paid taxes, and had relationships before I moved to the UK either. It's really not some hideous right-wing, evil Tories stipulation, it's how the vast majority of the world works.

You keep saying "commitment" but it's not. It's money making exercise, that's all.
I think you are taking a piss here from your last posts.

Of course they are 'upset', those newspapers promote xenophobia at every opportunity.

You don't really have an authoritative position as you have no experience worth considering and seem to view things very simplistically.

It is very difficult to give up your other citizenship because the risk is that your chosen country takes a totalitarian turn, persecutes 'outsiders' and you are unable to flee.

But commonwealth citizens can vote in GE here? as that is the case & they are not showing the commitment you want, would you support withdrawing their right to vote here?

People who move abroad, can still vote here, so i don't think voting is tied to "commitment", so Sunak paid his taxes in the USA yet could vote in the UK... not much commitment to the UK.

imho if you are a citizen of another country, have lived here for say 5 years plus & pay taxes here, you should get a vote, what other countries do, is neither here nor there.

Definitely extend to 16/17yo's, they are our future and are expected to be taking exams that will determine their entire future and be making plans to take on extremely high student loans, yet are apparently too immature to vote.

@cakeorwine yup. Counttries can revoke citizenship.
Tbh i think those not allowing dual should reconsider now and fit with lifestyle of many on a planet.

But commonwealth citizens can vote in GE here? as that is the case & they are not showing the commitment you want, would you support withdrawing their right to vote here

I would like to someone argue why some people who are not citizens can get a vote in General Elections but not others.

I had a look and lots of talk on Starmer rigging things in his favour.

He went to the trouble of keeping those voters on side with earlier Brexit stance but stirring them up with this. Probably the local elections and feeling emboldened.

He could switch that over and it would help the U.K. more than prioritising future Labour success. Too late now though.

@Igneococcus makes good points

I think if people are settled here (eg lived for more than x amount of years) they should be able to vote in GE, whatever their citizenship. The results affect them too, after all. Even someone with ILR can’t vote, AFAIK, even if they have been living here longer than they’ve lived elsewhere.
not the case, though and not very likely to be for a long time, if ever.