To thinks SATs don’t really matter?

[whodawhodaeho]

DD is year 6 and her class teacher( and year head) has told them that if they don’t do well in SATs then they’ll be put with the disruptive, badly behaved kids in ‘big’ school. Ie put in lower sets forever

I have told her this is nonsense - that the new school will assess her themselves up til Oct half term then stream sets for certain subjects (which they do - her DB is there ) and the SATs don’t matter.
And they continually assess and move kids around according to ability/ progress through school terms/ years

YABU - yes they matter, and yes secondary school will pay attention to the results

YANBU - they don’t really matter

Bonkers comment. Expect its not the first one from the head, so presume your dc don't believe every word he/ she says.

just say do your best and it will be fine. In secondary, teachers sort it all out anyway. Just don't spend summer grilling dc on maths etc! If they aren't great at a subject, it's better to be in a group that goes slower, time to learn. It doesn't mean they will be tagged as useless forever at school. They do the same exams in the end.

Here's my take.

When parents of 4 year olds are picking schools they look at Ofsted reports, SAT results and whether the uniform makes their child look cute.

By Y6, they send the kids in leggings and trainers, don't bother with PE kit, argue the arse out of the importance of SATs vs life changing opportunities the night before.

What does it matter if we agree or disagree SATs are important, you've decided for your child and if she zeds out in tomorrow's test you've decided that's less important than her big opportunity.

Had a chat with a deputy head teacher friend ( in our local authority) who told me to go, the SATs are fairly pointless as far as she's concerned for kids, but important to school. She also seconded that the next school for DD put very little store by them and does their own assessments .

So we went! Don't think DD will get the part, I think she's a bit young, but it was a amazing experience and she's met some people who have inspired her, and who could influence a lot for her when a bit older if she still goes down this route.
DD went to bed about an 1.5 hrs later than normal and has just got up ( we live very close to school) and seems fine!

Thanks for the input and good luck for all your kids in these stupid tests!

They are meaningless. Because of the hot housing that goes on most secondary schools carry out their own testing after the summer and they've got a few years before exam sets to find their actual abilities. They do set the percentages for gcse grades from the cohorts SATs AND in the shit secondary schools students are marked against their 'expected' from their SATs. Decent secondary schools obviously this isn't a problem.

@srin This is part of the problem, assuming someone who is in bottom set is likely to be disruptive, so far from the truth from experience with my own children. Many children who meas around can still do well academically.

My eldest is extremely academic and in top sets for all his subjects and from what he has told me there is more than a handful of kids that sound like they run rings around the teacher.

My youngest is not academic at all and is likely to not get a grade on one of his SAT assessments when his time comes. Without being bias, he probably is the most well behaved kid in his classroom. It saddens me that people judge someones personality based on the set they are in.

Always told mine, as long as they work to the best of their ability, then I am one proud mum, irrelevant of the results!

OK but being realistic, as a teacher, there are more disruptive kids in lower sets but it's actually compounded by the fact that top set kids can cope with it and catch up themselves if required, bottom sets need teacher attention to be on teaching not behaviour management as they will not be able to understand it by themselves or with lots of noise around.
So labelling either by sats result, class/ses and speech codes, ethnicity etc shouldn't be relevant but it is. Also teachers don't know your kids that well, especially at the start of yr7 and the rest of ks3 as lessons might be shared on infrequent so it might be a little while before anyone twigs your child is in the wrong set, if they even allow movement between sets. And your kid might perform to the level they think they are expected to and just assume secondary is easier, so not achieve to their ability. So yr6 matter even though they shouldn't. Plus process 8 is the key performance measure for schools.

@Boomboom22 I don't have any personal experience in schools regarding behaviour and sets, only what my eldest has mentioned to me. My eldest is in the top sets and has told me a number of stories regarding the disruptive ones. If someone is naturally disruptive, I wouldn't have thought it mattered how academic you are.

My youngest, when he attends high school is likely to be in the lower sets as he struggles academically and has always worked towards expectations. I do worry about him being categorised as a disruptive child, he is far from this, obviously the teachers will soon realise this when they come to teach him but it does have me questioning whether teachers judge the lower set children before they have even met them.

@JussathoB thanks. I have nothing but sympathy for the teachers who have to work within these rigid, top-down frameworks. I think the problem is less the Progress 8 framework per se than there is no flexibility built in.

My son is in year 7 now. He was put in bottom set for English because he didn't do well on his English sat paper. All of their classes have been based on the SAT results. Which is such a shame.
They are this week taking exams to be used to change classes depending on results so they've done well over 6 months first. And yes he is with a lot of unruly children so I'm hoping he will get moved up this time

My kids school don’t do them. I’m sure they will still somehow get an education.

The focus on exams is so unhealthy and damaging I really think our system needs to adopt the USA style of education where you have a grade point average which reflects work done over the year, and there’s opportunities for extra credit to improve it.

Wheelz46

It’s not that we judge all lower set students as disruptive it’s that from years of experience we know that in a lower set a far higher percentage of students will be so.
In top sets you are likely to get a maximum of 3-5 difficult students, in bottom sets around 10, sometimes more.
sometimes students are disruptive because they cannot access the work at all and those students will almost always be in bottom sets.
most teachers feel very sorry for the weak academically but beautifully behaved children who are stuck with feral kids who are not interested in learning at all.

My children’s sats results were on every termly report from year 7 to year 11 and they plus the cat results gave their sets and gcse grade predictions so yes they do matter and are used by secondaries!

I'm afraid SATs results stay with them as they use them to predict GCSE results - yes they use them to set them in maths/English in year 7 and they do retest them and they may move sets based on results.

SATs are only done for the government’s/league tables benefit. They have no purpose for the children and should be scrapped imo. Yanbu.

Absolute waste of time at 10 years years old with some home tuition by me my dd was arguing with a teacher about probability and dx by dy squared. Teacher didn't have a clue what she was on about and said you'll be in the lower set at senior school. Lol, but the teacher could sing "the wheels on the bus really well"

All exams are there for is to turn everyone into clones. They really should be teaching kids proper life skills such as cooking cleaning and budgeting money. I don't believe in any exams that makes everyone answer the same questions that at the end of the day don't even matter.

Because they don't really. The exams that do matter are the actual GCSE's and a levels

So at my school they are set based on SATs and whilst there is an element of fluidity, you can only move up if someone else moves down, which is rare so some kids to miss put until they are properly re-set for GCSE classes, but which point it's too late for the bottom set.

We also base out gifted and talented programme on SATs scores. There are a couple of subjects that start in year 8 that are only available to those that get and average score of 110 in their SATs.

They are also used to form predicted grades for GCSE.

Obviously children should try their best with their SATs (some schools near me used to not sure if still do have entry requirements) but the teacher should not be trying to scaremonger them. The secondary school will assess each pupil for themselves. When i was at school we spent the first year with all lessons apart from (textiles, cookery and woodwork) in our forms with a completely random mix of abilities, we took exams/assesments at the wnd of the year and that along with the teacher assessment determined what tier we went into for the 2nd and 3rd year before more SATs and like you say if someone is in the wrong group, ie improved or struggling they would move around as needed so each pupil is learning at the level and speed most suitable for them. At my school if you were in top tier it would mean you would get entered into the higher level exam papers, if in middle it would depend on the pupil if higher or foundation based on teacher views and pupil wants, then lower set would be entered at foundation level to help everyone get the best grades possible.

I know schools where the SATS results are used as an indicator of what the student could go on to achieve, and targets are set as a result of that, but the predicted grades come much later, from the teachers who by then know the student well. It’s not unusual for students to have royally messed up the SATS, have low target grades as a result, but then high predicted grades once the GCSE teachers realise their potential. The reverse is also very true - some students ace the SATS but then plateau and are saddled with high GCSE indicator grades which they will never meet - and so go on to constantly feel they are underachieving. I have DC who have been both these examples - it hasn’t affected their happiness, but it was a struggle getting the able-but-not-good-in-SATS one recognised - he had to “prove” himself a lot.

My SEN kid is struggling through SATS this week.

I've told him they can't be that important because his sister is doing well and she never even got to sit them due to Covid.

My experience of our ofsted outstanding rated secondary school is that they are constantly assessing the kids and reshuffling classes. They all had to do CAT tests in year 7. They're trying to squeeze every last drop of potential out of the cohort, not leaving then to languish based on one set of SAT'S results and in house marked assessments from primary schools (and they're not always overly trusting of some primary schools assessment capabilities).

Depends on the secondary school. Staggeringly some use them in GCSE prediction.

I’m a maths teacher at a secondary school. At my school we don’t set the kids until Oct half term as we know SATs aren’t truly representative of the pupils ability (biggest problem we have is pupils getting tutors and doing exceptionally well in SATs but then really struggling at secondary as they don’t have the natural ability as others).

The biggest impact they have is on target grades. I would rather a pupil just does the best they can do and gets a realistic target grade to work towards. One that is too high (usually those coached and pushed through SATs) means that the pupils often feel rubbish as it looks like they are constantly underperforming. One that is too low, we get complaints from parents that we're not setting the bar high enough (we can’t change the target grades!). I’d say just let the kids be and do their best.

Also, academics aren’t everything and I’d definitely take my kid to an audition if they wanted to go! It’s important to also do things that bring the kids joy (as well as a challenge) which is what auditions will do. I doubt it will have much of an impact on the result anyway!

This is just my thoughts though, and not all schools are the same of course.

Perhaps in a couple of years time when the current year 9 do their GCSEs, without the schools having any SAT results for that year group, there'll be some statistically backed argument that SATs have no great benefit.

I’m so glad you took her to the audition! My DD is unsure whether to go to an open audition on Saturday. She’s naturally quite shy but loves to sing and dance and I think it would be a great experience for her even though I don’t think she’d get a part. I’m not pushing her though, leaving it completely up to her whether she wants to do it or not. I just think she’d love the audition process and it would help her confidence. Good luck for the rest of your DD SATs week - if she works hard, it doesn’t matter what she gets ❤️