Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To thinks SATs don’t really matter?

362 replies

whodawhodaeho · 09/05/2023 08:12

DD is year 6 and her class teacher( and year head) has told them that if they don’t do well in SATs then they’ll be put with the disruptive, badly behaved kids in ‘big’ school. Ie put in lower sets forever

I have told her this is nonsense - that the new school will assess her themselves up til Oct half term then stream sets for certain subjects (which they do - her DB is there ) and the SATs don’t matter.
And they continually assess and move kids around according to ability/ progress through school terms/ years

YABU - yes they matter, and yes secondary school will pay attention to the results

YANBU - they don’t really matter

OP posts:
Devonmummy80 · 13/05/2023 07:06

My dc school didn't set children in year 7, year 8 only maths.

Horsetoday · 13/05/2023 07:30

NEmama · 12/05/2023 21:56

Oh and anyone not seeing the need for sets.
You try teaching quadratic equations to some kids and others in the same year can't do 3x4
Yes this is the reality of secondary teaching

The reality for our dcs school is that with setting the teachers chose the level that the whole class had to sit at - kids get limits not targets.

Horsetoday · 13/05/2023 07:34

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 06:55

Actually they were extremely effective

Thankfully they were against the primary school punishment policy - didn’t stop the teachers from attempting to implement them - but it did help with getting the teacher to stop.

Summerwhereareyou · 13/05/2023 08:37

@jenkel

Wow thank you. Your poor dd.

DietrichandDiMaggio · 13/05/2023 09:30

They created peer pressure on the naughty kids to behave. It’s really not that hard to work out.

Well obviously in your school all the 'naughty' kids were misbehaving purely through choice and stopped doing so because they wanted to keep the rest of the class happy.Hmm
As others have pointed out, when you were at school many more children would have been in special schools, so the more challenging behaviour was not in mainstream.
You know nothing about the reasons for inappropriate behaviour, behaviour management or how to teach.

Getting back to the point -the discussion was about whether SATs results are part of the information used to initially set in year 7, not what supposedly worked in your school 30-40 years ago. If you're going to argue that sets shouldn't exist, please find some more recent evidence.

Walkaround · 13/05/2023 09:31

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 06:55

Actually they were extremely effective

And, in my personal experience, caused bullying and resentment.

Caramac555 · 13/05/2023 10:04

This years year 6 have significant disruption due to Covid in their school careers, they have returned to schools which have been underfunded throughout their entire time at school and where their classroom teacher has been out on strike and some TAs have left to work in supermarkets. Some kids need to be given breakfast at school.

And we give them papers harder than any before.

Shame we can't score them for resilience. I think my child won't pass, but all credit to him for staying calm and doing his best and not crying.

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 10:29

Caramac555 · 13/05/2023 10:04

This years year 6 have significant disruption due to Covid in their school careers, they have returned to schools which have been underfunded throughout their entire time at school and where their classroom teacher has been out on strike and some TAs have left to work in supermarkets. Some kids need to be given breakfast at school.

And we give them papers harder than any before.

Shame we can't score them for resilience. I think my child won't pass, but all credit to him for staying calm and doing his best and not crying.

Exactly- we’re looking at a cohort who have had nearly half of their junior school education delivered by parents. It’s made the division so much worse. Shane on anyone who wants to perpetuate this

Monimom · 13/05/2023 10:51

On a tour of a reputable and lovely secondary school the headteacher stage whispered to the kids that they do their own tests in year seven "do your best for you and your teachers", but don’t worry about us, type thing. It was really refreshing to hear - and true. The school the kids ended up attending did exactly that, including cognitive ability tests.

IglesiasPiggl · 13/05/2023 10:56

My DS is going into Y7 in Sept and will be sitting a series of CATs next month at his new school. They use these to create balanced tutor groups, and to help with setting in January. They don't use the SATs for anything of consequence.

Iamnotthe1 · 13/05/2023 11:08

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 10:29

Exactly- we’re looking at a cohort who have had nearly half of their junior school education delivered by parents. It’s made the division so much worse. Shane on anyone who wants to perpetuate this

That's a little hyperbolic, don't you think? For this cohort, it has been:

Year 3 as normal: 7 months
Year 3 in lockdown: 2 months
Year 3 in phased return: 1.5 months (either in person or remote, depending on the school).
During the Y3 lockdown, educational delivery was suspended by the Government. Some things might have been delivered but this depended on the school.

Year 4 as normal: 8.5 months
Year 4 in lockdown: 2 months
This lockdown had lessons prepared by teachers that were either delivered remotely by teaching staff or printed and instructions followed by parents (again, depends on the school).

Year 5 as normal

Year 6 as normal

Even if the schools provided absolutely nothing and none of these children returned to school in Y3 during the phased return, the maximum time spent in lockdown learning was around 15% of their junior school education. For some, there may have been further periods off due to having Covid but those bouts would have to total an additional 13 - 15 months in order to bring it to half of their junior school education.

Yes, this cohort has felt the impact of Covid, as other cohorts have, but exaggerating the time with inaccurate statements doesn't help anyone.

Windowcleaning · 13/05/2023 11:30

Yes, all children and young people experienced considerable disruption to their education and social development during the pandemic, not helped by broader social issues like underfunding of education, health, CAMHs, SALT services etc. Very varied experiences which are still being expressed through behaviour, attendance, mental health and attitude.

Generalising about 'this cohort' and making hyperbolic claims is supremely unhelpful imvho.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 13/05/2023 11:42

Mintmeanderings · 09/05/2023 09:08

Well, some kids in the bottom sets will be there because they don't care about school and don't do a tap of work and want to mess about with their friends instead. Surely? Just like some will be there because they have issues, at home or otherwise, that prevent them working to their full potential. It's not all going to be diligent, hard-working, low-ability students now is it? It'll be a mix.
Still plenty of messers in the higher-abilty sets too btw and I don't think the year head should have said what she did.

In most mainstream secondaries, I would say the very bottom set is usually students who have SEN or other challenges that prevent them from fully accessing the curriculum, and they need additional support. Often, they're a much smaller group than others, and schools will try to have a TA present, so there is a lot more adult support than in other groups. In the past, although less so now, there may be more than one TA present due to ECHPs.

(obviously not all students with SEN will be in bottom sets, but nearly all students with significant challenges will have SEN, whether diagnosed or not).

Because of the small group size and the extra adults, there is often less "low level disruption" than in other groups. What does/can happen is more high level behaviour incidents (e.g. walking out etc) due to frustration/not being able to cope with school and so on.

The students who don't care/don't work tend to end up in a lower middle set, and yes, that can have significant behaviour issues. Some of them still end up in middle/upper middle sets, because at least in KS3, a naturally able child who doesn't do much work can still perform reasonably well at assessment- and at this age, very few children do no work at all without there being significant issues at play.

In my experience, middle sets tend to be the worst for "low level disruption", although this can be so constant it prevents others from learning.

Some schools will also try the tactic of moving significantly disruptive students into top sets, because they believe the higher level of challenge/being surrounded by more able/motivated students will cause their behaviour to improve. Of course, this only stands a chance of working if the top sets are actually well behaved. Some students can be very able and very disruptive at the same time.

wellstopdoingitthen · 13/05/2023 11:45

YANBU
SATS are not important past the point of taking them. I've had two children go through them. I told them they should always do their best but not to worry about the results. The first didn't do very well at all & he didn't stress about it. The second did well but stressed he hadn't done well enough. Both were retested when they got to secondary school (different schools & 6 years apart). The SATS seemed ignored by secondary school.

I work in a primary school & our head encourages all children to do their best f& it's good practise for taking 'proper' exams later on. He said to me yesterday "I don't know any job interview that asks what your SAT results were".

Btw my eldest excelled at secondary & came out with A* in his GCSEs gone on to a very happy career. The second is doing a masters at Uni. They haven't a clue what their SAT results were now.

Treat them as a practise & the results as a snapshot in time.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 13/05/2023 13:28

whodawhodaeho · 09/05/2023 09:31

‘She might miss out on the extra interventions in year 11 as she is already meeting or exceeding her targets ‘

Not for one second do I think that the results my 10 year old gets this week in SATs are going to matter when she’s 16.

SATS are used to determine the national target grades secondary schools are measured against. Currently, progress 8 scores are quite important to schools, and have been for a while.

Therefore, some schools invest a lot of time and support into students who are failing to meet their targets, even if they're already achieving, say 5s/6s- whereas if their targets are 5s/6s the support may not be offered.

Of course, this may all change over the next 5 years, and not every school operates this way, but it is very much a thing.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 13/05/2023 13:50

JenWillsiam · 11/05/2023 19:44

As above. If a school is only basing support on target grades from year 6 sats that’s a problem. No good school does that.

A lot of Ofsted "good" schools will do this sort of thing, because progress 8 can have an influence on the outcome of an inspection. Having good data means you are more likely to get a good grade as a school.

Summerwhereareyou · 13/05/2023 14:47

@Postapocalypticcowgirl

Good post

Hopefulandwaiting · 13/05/2023 15:24

SATS absolutely don’t matter and In my experience having no baring on the ability of a child - there is a reason why so many secondaries do their own screeners!

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 15:47

Iamnotthe1 · 13/05/2023 11:08

That's a little hyperbolic, don't you think? For this cohort, it has been:

Year 3 as normal: 7 months
Year 3 in lockdown: 2 months
Year 3 in phased return: 1.5 months (either in person or remote, depending on the school).
During the Y3 lockdown, educational delivery was suspended by the Government. Some things might have been delivered but this depended on the school.

Year 4 as normal: 8.5 months
Year 4 in lockdown: 2 months
This lockdown had lessons prepared by teachers that were either delivered remotely by teaching staff or printed and instructions followed by parents (again, depends on the school).

Year 5 as normal

Year 6 as normal

Even if the schools provided absolutely nothing and none of these children returned to school in Y3 during the phased return, the maximum time spent in lockdown learning was around 15% of their junior school education. For some, there may have been further periods off due to having Covid but those bouts would have to total an additional 13 - 15 months in order to bring it to half of their junior school education.

Yes, this cohort has felt the impact of Covid, as other cohorts have, but exaggerating the time with inaccurate statements doesn't help anyone.

Not really, my sons school were in and out, while classes off because of covid then individuals off because of covid, isolation because family members off followed by the child having covid. Impact of mental health issues because of covid. Parents had to deliver the education whether or not the teachers sent out worksheets.

it really doesn’t help you minimising the impact of covid on this group.

if these SATs results are used to predict GCSEs it will be a travesty.

Windowcleaning · 13/05/2023 16:57

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 13/05/2023 13:28

SATS are used to determine the national target grades secondary schools are measured against. Currently, progress 8 scores are quite important to schools, and have been for a while.

Therefore, some schools invest a lot of time and support into students who are failing to meet their targets, even if they're already achieving, say 5s/6s- whereas if their targets are 5s/6s the support may not be offered.

Of course, this may all change over the next 5 years, and not every school operates this way, but it is very much a thing.

Yep. I've written a long post upthread about how my dd not getting her SATs results (whole year group annulled - not their fault) led to low teacher expectations, her getting moved down sets in KS4 as the school didn't need to show her progress, and meant that her predicted GCSE grades were lower than her mock results meaning that she missed out on a conditional sixth form offer that she was hoping for.

I'd love to say that they don't matter, although maybe they matter less if children are given targets that at least vaguely correspond to their previous attainment.

Iamnotthe1 · 13/05/2023 17:00

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 15:47

Not really, my sons school were in and out, while classes off because of covid then individuals off because of covid, isolation because family members off followed by the child having covid. Impact of mental health issues because of covid. Parents had to deliver the education whether or not the teachers sent out worksheets.

it really doesn’t help you minimising the impact of covid on this group.

if these SATs results are used to predict GCSEs it will be a travesty.

Oh I'm not minimising: I'm presenting a realistic picture back up by measureable data. You, however, are claiming that the average child in the current Y6 cohort went on to isolate with parent-delivered education (so no teacher input on any of it at all) for a further 13 to 15 months on top of the national lockdowns. That's roughly 37 further individual isolation periods of the maximum recommended 10 days during the two years that isolation was recommended.

If you are going to pull out statements like "we’re looking at a cohort who have had nearly half of their junior school education delivered by parents" you should expect to be challenged on it and need to be able to back that up with evidence. If you can't, don't make the ridiculous statement in the first place.

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 17:59

Iamnotthe1 · 13/05/2023 17:00

Oh I'm not minimising: I'm presenting a realistic picture back up by measureable data. You, however, are claiming that the average child in the current Y6 cohort went on to isolate with parent-delivered education (so no teacher input on any of it at all) for a further 13 to 15 months on top of the national lockdowns. That's roughly 37 further individual isolation periods of the maximum recommended 10 days during the two years that isolation was recommended.

If you are going to pull out statements like "we’re looking at a cohort who have had nearly half of their junior school education delivered by parents" you should expect to be challenged on it and need to be able to back that up with evidence. If you can't, don't make the ridiculous statement in the first place.

Oh you’re being ridiculous and unpleasant, I really hope you’re not a teacher.

Once you factor in things like poor mental health, repeated isolations etc, trying to level kids up etc then, yes very large parts of junior education have been missed and not been experience as they could. Quite frankly teacher input for many was worse than useless during the lockdowns. Granted int might not have been exactly half (it can be used as a figure of speech you know too - maybe that’s why some primary school teachers struggled to understand the questions on the year 6reading test😀).

anyway have a lovely day and go take your pedantic nature elsewhere love.

Iamnotthe1 · 13/05/2023 18:39

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 17:59

Oh you’re being ridiculous and unpleasant, I really hope you’re not a teacher.

Once you factor in things like poor mental health, repeated isolations etc, trying to level kids up etc then, yes very large parts of junior education have been missed and not been experience as they could. Quite frankly teacher input for many was worse than useless during the lockdowns. Granted int might not have been exactly half (it can be used as a figure of speech you know too - maybe that’s why some primary school teachers struggled to understand the questions on the year 6reading test😀).

anyway have a lovely day and go take your pedantic nature elsewhere love.

Unpleasant how exactly? All my comments have been specifically addressing what you have said from a factual standpoint whilst yours have now become personal attacks.

It can indeed be used as a hyperbolic figure of speech, which is why I originally said that hyperbole wasn't helpful in this situation. However, by all means, attempt to have another dig at Y6 teachers in general if it makes you feel better about being wrong.

I'll happily accept the label of "pedantic" if doing so means that we recognise that facts are facts and treat them as such.

Have a lovely day.

UndertheCedartree · 13/05/2023 19:02

OMG12 · 13/05/2023 15:47

Not really, my sons school were in and out, while classes off because of covid then individuals off because of covid, isolation because family members off followed by the child having covid. Impact of mental health issues because of covid. Parents had to deliver the education whether or not the teachers sent out worksheets.

it really doesn’t help you minimising the impact of covid on this group.

if these SATs results are used to predict GCSEs it will be a travesty.

Covid has had a huge impact on my Dd's junior school experience.

They were sent home in March 20 in Y3 and didn't go back until September. No work was provided not that I could have taught it to her as I caught Covid in April 20 and was very poorly for a couple of months and then had Long Covid. She went back into Y4 very upset about not going back to her Y3 teacher and highly anxious. After one term they were off again, this time with a ridiculous expectation (from the government) of how many Oak Academy classes they could get through in a day, plus Zoom calls with her class. She did not get on with working online and it was just a horrible struggle. She went back even more anxious. She went into Y5 with a teacher that did wonders for her anxiety but then at Christmas caught Covid which turned into Long Covid. Once well enough to go back to school she had to return on a reduced timetable. She's now in Y6 and is back on full days but catches everything that goes round so has had a lot of time off as well as still experiencing muscle and joint pains from the Long Covid which sometimes causes her to miss days too.

Windowcleaning · 13/05/2023 19:52

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter, UndertheCedartree. Some families really, really suffered during the pandemic, and long Covid in a child is awful to think about.

Hope that things gradually get better for both of you.