To thinks SATs don’t really matter?

[whodawhodaeho]

DD is year 6 and her class teacher( and year head) has told them that if they don’t do well in SATs then they’ll be put with the disruptive, badly behaved kids in ‘big’ school. Ie put in lower sets forever

I have told her this is nonsense - that the new school will assess her themselves up til Oct half term then stream sets for certain subjects (which they do - her DB is there ) and the SATs don’t matter.
And they continually assess and move kids around according to ability/ progress through school terms/ years

YABU - yes they matter, and yes secondary school will pay attention to the results

YANBU - they don’t really matter

Just as you said to me, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are viewing this from your experience which was probably (guessing) a minimum of 8 to 10 years ago. Times have changed and we do move children up and down sets all the time based on their ability. It is either we put them in lower sets to ensure we teach at their level and try to keep them in school or they are expelled, which we do not like to do.

When you have worked in a school and I work in a severely deprived area and am originally from London and have high SEND and disability needs, so I get that sets have their pros and cons, you see the need for them. We do our best. You do not know me and I do not know you. You do not know the kind of teacher I am. You do not know that I sit and wait every morning for a girl with severe anxiety that was a victim of abuse because I am the only person she trusts. You do not know that I get the badly behaved students in my tutor group because I am the only one they like because I listen and I tell them the truth. You do not know that I am there, talking badly behaved kids down from doing something that will make it worse for them. I do care for my kids. I like to say I am a mother to more than just my own biological son, but that does not mean that badly behaved kids are not badly behaved and that they need smaller, less fast paced sets because they will be out of lesson more often than the higher sets which means I need to go over material more and slower with the lower sets.

We do not WRITE OFF our kids. We adapt to them. But I am not going to put a badly behaved student that is achieving a grade 3 in a class with grade 8s. It is not fair to them and affects their mental health more. They need to be taught at their level. You do not get to judge my teaching when I am being adaptive to them and sometimes, I am the only one reminding them to eat. Sets work because I was a middle set child and it pushed me to stay out of bottom set and try for top, but also I was taught at my level and wasn't pushed too hard or not enough and it did not make me feel worthless for being around smarter children because I was with people working at the same speed as me.

Children do not all learn the same and adults do not all learn the same. We each have different needs. We cater to that and if you ever get the chance to see or work in a school you will see that. This will be my last comment. Have a good day.

Actually I was talking about the situation today. In my day1980s and 90s in my school there was minimal use of sets. They weren’t needed, all lessons suited all children, those who struggled most had additional help during lunch/breaks from teachers.

Whilst you might have been motivated to stay out of the bottom and move towards the top. A child put in the bottom group, effectively being told they’re not as good as others is having the same message pushed on them from many angles.

There is just no need for sets, teachers can be adaptable within classes. As I said, I have been top of the class and towards the bottom, at no point was I ever of the opinion someone who needed additional help holding me back, it taught me patience and compassion. When I was bottom, the more able kids were able to model better understanding and ways of thinking.

Schools are about more than academic achievement, esp where there are deprived pupils.

it’s great that you are looking out for that girl, but all children need looking after, whether they behave poorly or not, whether they are academic or not. There should be no need to move between groups. Children should not live in fear of falling down a group, they should feel safe to reach towards success and deal with inevitable failures that come with growth, they should not somehow feel they are punished for those failures. School should be a safe environment for exploration. I get that resources limit a schools ability, but none of what I suggest means more resources, it’s adapting what you already have.

if you thought you would feel “ worthless” being around kids smarter than you, surely that is an argument against sets. In life you will mix with people who are smarter and those who aren’t as smart. You will have to work amongst a mixture of abilities. Surely school should prepare you for that? Why would you feel worthless because someone is brighter. What on earth would make you feel that way. It’s another iteration of divide and conquer.

it’s interesting how inflexible your views are on this, how you take the criticism of a system and your defence of it as a personal attack.

OMG12

Are you a teacher?

please feel free to explain to me how I can simultaneously teach a potential Oxbridge student, a student who knows three words of English and a student who reads and writes at the level of a 5 year old?

You could probably find a teacher from the 80s and 90s who seemed to manage it in my school. My classes had people who did attend Oxbridge and people who left school at 16 and went into work,

If you have a 15 year old with a reading age of 5 then clearly the system they have been in so far isn’t working for them. We are not talking teenagers who are effectively illiterate though in general are we? That clearly needs addressing separately. The educational system has quite clearly failed them or they aren’t suited to mainstream schools.

I threatened to pull my kids out of the end of Year 6 if the school didn’t lighten up on the pressure and break time detentions for those who weren’t improving and I wasn’t the only one to go it and have strong words. The school really lost all sense of perspective.

OMG12

You do understand that compares the 80s and the 90s there are very few special schools now meaning children with severe behaviour needs and academic needs are in mainstream classrooms? many schools also have lots of EAL students.

I’m still waiting for your pearls of wisdom, apparently we’re all shit teachers for not wanting to teach grade 1s and grade 9s in the same classroom so I assumed you had knowledge of how to manage that kind of class without inhibiting the learning of either end of the spectrum.

It is true. It might not be sensible but it is true.

@DisquietintheRanks - what’s with the🤔face directed at me? I haven’t expressed any opinion whatsoever on whether SATS or any other kind of measurement are a good or bad thing overall, I have simply pointed out to people who think it can have no bearing on, or relevance to, the way their individual children are treated by a school that this is slightly flawed thinking, and that statistical measurement to monitor and control human behaviour has its flaws and unexpected consequences; and have pointed out to someone who thinks private schools would avoid what they think are “nonsensical” measures is wrong, because measuring and grading children is very much in vogue in the private sector. I have never, at any point, said or even implied that statistical measurement of progress, and accountability measures, including SATS are pointless. Plenty of children are still being quietly failed, however, despite the statistics, as I have already pointed out. Trying to manipulate statistics does not have zero impact on the treatment of individual children.

If sats generate GCSE targets and enable to stream children into supposed suitable sets, what happened to all the children who didn’t do them due to covid lockdowns?

Well here’s the pearl of wisdom, treat all kids the same. Kids aren’t “grade 1s” or “grade 9s” they are kids with potential, some of whom get things more quickly than others , some need things explaining in different ways.

But my main advice is to stop classifying children by what grades you think they will get, because they’re likely to aim for those.

I would also advise you to be less aggressive in the face of challenge.

During lockdowns, SATs were scrapped for all. As a result, no child has that data. As of yet, the DfE have not stated how the progress of those children will be measured with regards to an adjusted "progress 8". They did, recently, state that they are exploring options and will share the progress accountability measure once they have decided what it is.

In the meantime, secondaries have been making it up based on whatever data the primary schools were able to provide for these children and hoping that they are guessing right as to how the accountability measures will be formed.

As far as I am aware, there will be no progress 8 published for the cohorts that missed Sats. So schools will do their own thing.
Its not that schools arent capable of internal trsting and data to predict grades and set targets.
Its that progress 8 is a published thing so schools take it into account.

OMG12

you have proved time and again on this thread that you know less than fuck all about modern education and the types of children who are taught together yet you keep bleating on telling experienced teachers how to do their jobs.
And strangely not one practical suggestion, just platitudes.
if it’s so easy and you know so much, how come you’re not a teacher? I mean with your vast experience of once attending school it’s amazing that schools aren’t all ringing you up to ask for your expertise.

I am not a professional or an expert in such matters. I’m just a mum with an opinion!

However, my opinion is that SATS really DO matter.

Plus, I fully support sets in secondary school. Every teacher adapting the lesson for the students they have infront of them. It seems common sense to me. But I can see from many comments that I’m outnumbered.

I don’t think you are outnumbered. I think there are a variety of opinions on here on a variety of different issues. You have failed to say why you think SATS matter, however. What, in your opinion, is the purpose of SATS, and do you think they are solely used for that purpose?

I am with you !
SATs in my point of view is nerve wracking and soul destroying for both parents and especially the children who goes through this.
I u desertando that is a challenge and in one way prepares children for other types of challenges along their life’s, teaches discipline and dedication towards a goal but let’s be honest, who does that all benefits more rather than the schools that will be rated by their SATS levels results ? Certainly not the child.
why ? Because they will pass and move on to secondary school ANYWAY !!!!

so my answer is NO, it doesn’t matter ! And I also say that because I have a child that missed a lot from year 1 to 5 with covid in the middle and is very late and I already put in my mind that it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t do well nexts year. I won’t worry or make him feel bad for it, I won’t diminish his capability of doing better the years after because I won’t crush his dreams and self steam.
I came from a country where studies are highly paid and had exams every 3 months and if I didn’t study and pass, guess what ? I was held back to re-do the year all over again. That is what I call hard and a real worry, not the system in the UK.

I hope it helps :)
don’t worry !

My DD has been doing SATs this week too. She’s been so stressed it’s unbelievable. I’ve been saying to her that they’re not the be all and end all. What will be will be. I certainly don’t agree that 10 year olds should be doing them.

Teacher here. They absolutely do not matter at all. They are entirely about the school. They do not measure a child’s academic ability in the least. They measure a child’s ability to sit an exam. There is a reason that secondary schools baseline children in the first 6 weeks - because the SATS are ineffective at measuring a child’s academic ability and learning styles.

I am a professional. Sets aren’t decided based on SATS. They are based on general teacher feedback. Children are baseline assessed within 6 weeks of starting secondary school.

they do NOT matter.

CantFindMyMarbles

Please read the thread.
many secondary teachers have said that in their schools SATs do decide sets and that they don’t do CATs or if they do they aren’t used to decide sets.
Also FFT targets which most schools use have SATS as a basis so they decide GCSE targets which influence sets at GCSE as well as interventions.

It’s definitely true that SATs aren’t the be all and end all and that success or failure in them doesn’t lead to those outcomes in future exams but what you are saying is just blatant misinformation and it’s unfair to parents who may base decisions on what you are saying.

My eldest is in year 7 at a selective Grammar School. SATS mean absolutely diddly squat there!

In fact, he was told he was behind with his maths for two years at primary school. He got 98% on his end of year 7 exam in Maths and he’ll be in top set. The 11+ is designed to determine the top 20% of the cohort anyway, so to be top set out of those children is certainly not a child who is badly behind.

My kids didn’t find the SATs exams stressful they found the pressure from the teacher stressful - it’s such a shit approach to education.

I can’t see why teachers can’t teach mixed ability groups, they managed it perfectly well through my school life. There was a certain amount of leading be example from the good and bright kids, class detentions meant peer pressure to behave well.

It's not the responsibility of well-behaved/bright children to educate other children and class detentions are one of the worst methods of behaviour management.

Well here’s the pearl of wisdom, treat all kids the same. Kids aren’t “grade 1s” or “grade 9s” they are kids with potential, some of whom get things more quickly than others , some need things explaining in different ways.

Children who get things quickly shouldn't have to sit around being bored, whilst the teacher goes over things again and again, instead of moving on and being challenged. Imagine being an able mathematician in year 11 sitting in a class where the teacher is still trying to teach other children stuff that an average year 6 child can do - when exactly do you think they'd learn anything?

That's really unfair to put that much pressure on such a young child. The SATs are a measure of how well the school are performing. They are taught to pass an exam and I don't agree with them at all.
Parents that have kids that do well brag about it so parents whose kids don't get such high marks then feel like they've failed