Increase in culture of envy

[BrighteyesBonnie]

AIBU to think that the culture of envy has increased significantly in the UK (if Mumsnet is anything to go by)?

For example, a thread by a lawyer asking whether their current salary is fair given their qualifications and years of experience contained a lot of responses angry that the OP is earning more than them and also ridiculing the OP for wanting a better salary.

Another example are threads on private schools, where there is a strong undercurrent of anger at those who are sending or want to send their children to private schools. Privately educated people are viewed with harsh lenses and often insulted.

Ambition and doing well do not appear to be appreciated if you’re doing better than the average.

It’s complicated.

There are people born into relative advantage who make bad decisions.

They leave education, are not sure of their direction, make a false start, spend a year or three traveling, or ‘finding themselves’, or ‘having fun’, spend money on retraining, finally get started in a career and then wake up at age thirty to realise that their friends who have been working during that time are all several steps up the career ladder and settling down around them.

Do I feel sorry for them? Not particularly.

It’s a bit like family size: by all means have three children and a period of SAHM for each of them, but don’t then be shocked that your CV is ten years out of date, you don’t have much of a savings buffer and things are expensive for a family of five.

If you start from a position of advantage then you have to recognise that your own decisions will all have an impact on your economic situation. I reserve my sympathy for people who are fighting the odds from the start.

That's very much not what was happening in the thread the OP is referring to though.

A woman earning £62k as a commercial solicitor in Birmingham posted asking for people's views about whether she is underpaid and her thread was totally derailed by mainly public sector workers whose pensions will be much more valuable than hers telling her she should be grateful to earn such a high salary, and telling us all about how many PhDs they had to do or years they had to work to reach the lofty heights of £30k in a completely unrelated sector.

That absolutely is a culture of envy.

Brilliant, sounds like you've done amazingly well- I feel proud of us!

The OP talked about 'envy' in general terms and used that other post as an example.

I was giving my opinion on why I did not think it is always about envy, so I believe it was relevant to the discussion.

Angrily ranting at people to ‘consider their privilege’, and perform self flagellation for the benefit of those that will dislike them anyway, rarely makes them consider their privilege. As if being privileged needs to be considered and referenced whenever a higher earner dares open their mouth to speak (or flexes their fingers to type).

Not every topic of conversation has to revolve around the less well off. The less well off do not define ‘the room’ and don’t get to demand to be the centre of attention in everyone else’s lives.

Besides, the less well off in this country are privileged comparative to those in developing and third world countries. Should those struggling in the UK therefore preface every complaint with ‘I know I’m privileged and I appreciate it etc etc etc…’.?

Agree. I think often people want to play down, or overlook advantages or privilege because they think it takes away from their own effort and hardwork. They're not mutually exclusive, someone on 100k (which seems to be a common salary on MN) will have of course worked hard....but in a lot of cases (not all) there might have been elements of privilege and luck along the way, as well. Even being naturally intelligent or talented will give you a head start on those that are not.

@MintJulia why are you assuming I assumed? what are you classing as tough? Many of us had issues; one of my parents was an addict. However the vast majority of us went to similar schools, had similar lifestyles. That's my point. DH works for an MC law firm, the workers really do come from a very narrow background particularly at partner level. And where I live it's very difficult to get on the housing ladder without help regardless of salary (obviously if you're older it's different) as you are looking at 700k plus for a flat.

Besides, the less well off in this country are privileged comparative to those in developing and third world countries.

So they should shut up?

@produ we should be celebrating parents who do all they can to support their kids and provide a foundation for success. That is what our society should encourage and reward rather than see it as a thing to “check” and be ever so slightly ashamed of.

I think this whole “check your privilege” has taken on a life different from the point being made around racism in society. It’s now being used for everything.

If everyone doing better because of either their own hard work or their parents own hard work, what exactly is our message to society.

What is the gap between the highest and lowest earner in a school? Do you know?
If the gap were not so big, nobody would bother to study for years, taken on student debt and a job with ten times the pressure of the cleaner or dinner lady who worked at the school, would they? It isn’t greedy to want your quality of life reflected by the time and effort you put in to getting the job and the job itself.

(disclaimer: I have worked as a cleaner).

I think there’s a general race to the bottom on here as part of a fashion if victimisation as well. If somebody posts to moan about their kids it’s ‘be grateful you were able to have children’. If somebody posts that their kid talks too much and needs constant attention it’s ‘be grateful your kid can talk, mine can’t’. And so on.

I do agree that assuming your contemporaries are from similar backgrounds is probably because many people are (wrongly) ashamed and worried they'll be judged on their background. Aside from the people who I consider actual friends at work I just tell people who ask why I went into medicine that it's because I loved Casualty growing up. Reality is I found my brother OD'd in the bath when I was 8 and he died in my arms. I had no clue what was happening at the time, I was terrified, traumatised and never wanted to be in the position again where I would be so incapable of helping someone.

I earn decent money now (still 5 x less what I'd earn in some other countries mind) but yeah I feel proud of those of us who grew up in poverty and grafted our way out of the poverty cycle. Who shut down the intrusive thoughts about not being good enough (and actual words from others saying the same); worked ridiculous hours around studying; spent hours applying for bursaries and hoping you'd be successful as your future depended on it; putting immeasurable pressure on yourself to pass exams and assignments because there was no fall back. That said those in my cohort and colleagues from what I'd say privileged backgrounds have still worked bloody hard to get where they are, its not the type of job where there are shortcuts albeit distinct advantages in terms of getting onto the degree.

There is a general feeling it's not the done thing to have aspirations, to celebrate successes, to be able to fight for the wage you're worth as others are on less or whatever. It's sad and it will have an affect on the workplace in the coming years.

Well whether something is evidence of a culture of envy is always going to be context specific, isn't it?

I agree that if someone is complaining on Mumsnet that this year's school fee increase means they can only have one skiing holiday this year, that's pretty tone deaf and telling that person to give their head a wobble is not necessarily a sign of envy.

But the salary thread was ridiculous. Someone on that thread actually described £62k as a salary so ridiculously high that no one should be allowed to earn that much.

I don't think it is to do with envy.

It is more about how inequalities have massively increased in this country and how standards of living have dropped.

When people are unhappy and struggle with housing, bills and so on, they are of course going to turn on those who seem to have it too easy/don't realise how privileged they are...

whooosh.

Why not? If there’s someone worse off that seems to be the suggestion by some on here, that if someone has less than you then you’re required to ‘consider your privilege’, and ‘read the room’.

My take is the things said on here, aren’t really said in real life. Thought, but not said. Many folks socialise with those in similar circumstances to them. I see threads where folks ask how can people afford x y or a. They appear to think everyone is in rhe same financial bracket . I also see threads where people think folks are lying about how much they earn, or threads declaring everyone on here is wealthy, when irs very clear it’s the opposite, it’s predominantly average to low income

in Real life you don’t get to give someone a kick because they have more than you. On a chat forum you can fill your boots. In real life you might think it, say it behind the persons back. Wonder how someone affords something, feel envy about what they have, but you don’t say it to their face and you don’t show it to them.

on a chat forum you can say it and attack because you’re anonymous

Well, either "count yourself lucky because there are people worse off than you" is a valid argument or it isn't.

If a teacher thinks a solicitor shouldn't be entitled to complain about her salary because teachers get paid less, by the same logic that teacher shouldn't be entitled to complain about their salary because there are people working in sweat shops in Bangladesh (to make the clothes the teacher is probably wearing) for pennies.

This

I think often people want to play down, or overlook advantages or privilege because they think it takes away from their own effort and hardwork.

This is the bit I find interesting. Where does it come from? my parents were immigrants who had nothing but savvy & got very lucky. That has made a huge impact on my life & equally my dcs lives.

@GeeHDees I'm not sure what you are missing? I never said some people can't do it alone, I just made the comment is it not common. And I know plenty of people who went to top private schools, had help onto the ladder & now are in their 1.4m plus homes & holiday homes & really think it was all just down to hard work. You don't have to agree with my though.

I see posts on how terrible it is that people can grow high levels of wealth in the UK

What are people aiming for as the alternative?

Is it to ensure that it’s not possible because the impact of taking away that possibility is not going to be fun or nicer.

A country that only enables lower income to exist won’t last long economically and everyone will feel it

But inequality isn't down to differences in people's salaries.

The biggest factors are generational inequality and inherited wealth.

Yet when a disabled OP who didn’t/couldn’t work was complaining about ‘only’ getting 15 free hours (alongside her free accommodation, expenses and medical care), posters said it was a disgrace she didn’t get the full 30 hours free and that she should be ‘entitled’ to it because it would be better for her child. The OP’s ‘point’ was that if she wasn’t single and had a working partner she would be ‘entitled’ to 30 free hours.

They couldn’t cope with the fact for once a concession was based on the parents working, rather than not working or being disabled. It’s like working people deserve nothing and their only purpose is to uncomplainingly prop up those who can’t or choose not to work.

So entitled it’s utterly mad.

@Swansandcustard yes you are explaining it better than me. I can see it's a "club" because my parents didn't grow up in it & family back home didn't have the same doors. Where I am it's really normal to tutor & have dc do lots of activities. That's expensive & time consuming. Of course there are dc who will succeed without that but it definitely gives my dc a leg up.

The biggest factors are generational inequality and inherited wealth.

yep & why the squabbling about salaries is pointless

When people talk about not having had access to this or that or the other that other people had, I ask myself whether they have taken full advantage of the things that they did get.

18 years of free education? Plenty of people waste that and deliberately learn very little.

Access to the internet. Have you been reading up on all the knowledge that's on there or have you been watching cat videos?

For people who have/are squandering the opportunities they have, I can't believe that giving them access to a few more will make all the difference. They'd most likely throw those away too.

we should be celebrating parents who do all they can to support their kids and provide a foundation for success. That is what our society should encourage and reward rather than see it as a thing to “check” and be ever so slightly ashamed of.

what does this have to do with private schools & charitable status?