Increase in culture of envy

[BrighteyesBonnie]

AIBU to think that the culture of envy has increased significantly in the UK (if Mumsnet is anything to go by)?

For example, a thread by a lawyer asking whether their current salary is fair given their qualifications and years of experience contained a lot of responses angry that the OP is earning more than them and also ridiculing the OP for wanting a better salary.

Another example are threads on private schools, where there is a strong undercurrent of anger at those who are sending or want to send their children to private schools. Privately educated people are viewed with harsh lenses and often insulted.

Ambition and doing well do not appear to be appreciated if you’re doing better than the average.

They couldn’t cope with the fact for once a concession was based on the parents working,rather than not working or being disabled. It’s like working people deserve nothing and their only purpose is to uncomplainingly prop up those who can’t or choose not to work.

I do think this also creates resentment between people as well as people's resentment towards people who earn a decent wage.

I think you really can’t assume things about people. DH is so corporate it hurts he’s done well in terms of earnings (though on mumsnet well could be 30k to anything less than a mill is poverty dahrling) he doesn’t go around volunteering that his dad worked in a factory. He’s not ashamed it just doesn’t come up.

The problem when ranting at a random person on the internet about how privileged they are is you don’t know if they were raised by a single mum doing shifts around childcare and grew up with fuck all or someone who grew up skiing and yachting.

Is that your main concern and the only lens through which you consider all points made? Private schools and charitable status?.

On that point, we should not make it harder for people with ambition on ordinary salaries to secure better futures for their children through private education.

You agreed that the issue is about wealth rather than incomes so removing charitable status will help make this better? The vast majority of people sending their kids to private schools are on ordinary incomes. Not millions.

Very good post from Swansandcustard.

A big part of the problem is the idea of some kind of inherent link between material success (or 'doing well ', as the OP persists in calling it*) and 'ambition' and 'hard work', perpetuated both to relieve the anxiety of the privileged over their privilege and to dispense with any need to consider systemic inequality, because after all anyone could be in their position of they only 'made the right choices'.

*If I were to ask people in a variety of jobs what they did in their last working week, I'd consider the TA who finally cracked phonics with little Jake with language de lay, or the nurse who spotted a postpartum mother's sepsis and saved her life, or the carer who comforted an elderly man and held his hand as he died as 'doing better' than the lawyer who closed a big corporate deal. But these people apparently lacked 'ambition ' and made the wrong 'choices'.

I don’t think the lawyer thread is a good example. It’s perfectly fine to be aware of what people with your qualifications and experience are earning. A lot of women don’t know what they’re worth and don’t ask for big enough salaries or pay rises. I don’t think that’s the same as envy.

I think that’s both right and wrong.

It’s not fair to expect primary school age kids to have the presence of mind to ‘make the most’ of their education if their home life is complete chaos and the class is disrupted by kids throwing things and kicking off constantly to the point the teacher has to physically restrain them.

It’s almost as true for secondary school - a crap comp is never going to present the advantage of a private school, with its badly behaved classmates and overpopulated class sizes.

However we all become adults at some point and if you don’t take steps to improve your life and made good decisions after the age of 25 or so, that’s very much on you. There are plenty of jobs out there, we’ve never had so many vacancies. I don’t really believe people ‘can’t find a job’ and therefore need to go on UC, I just think they don’t fancy the jobs available or think it’s worth losing a couple of hundred quid so they don’t have to get up at 6am and slog away in a job that doesn’t appeal.

Getting a shit job might not feel great to start with, but it helps to build up a CV which leads you on to the next stepping stone. I did this - started as a cleaner, applied for a job as an admin assistant, then moved up and up through the company. It is entirely possible with the right attitude and willingness.

Equally I don’t have much sympathy for people who make silly life decisions which will very clearly impact their earning potential. You see it on here time and time again. ‘I gave up work to be an unmarried SAHM and now hubby is leaving me, I’m screwed’. ‘3 kids under 5, pregnant and can’t afford food’. ‘AIBU to keep the baby even though the dad is a deadbeat loser and won’t contribute CMS’.

In such situations the children are usually wielded as an emotional blackmail tool - the mum knows she has to be looked after because otherwise the children will go without and nobody wants that. But it’s irritating such irresponsibility has very few consequences.

@BrighteyesBonnie what are you going on about? If you can't answer the question that's fine but the deflection is nonsensical! 😆😆

But why the resentment towards people earning a decent wage? The reality is that house prices in particular are so out of step with salaries that even people earning top wages (which require an awful lot of personal sacrifice) but without family money will be less well off than people earning average wages but with family money.

High salaries don't just fall out of the sky. Sometimes sought after jobs do fall out of the sky for people with the right connections, but they don't tend to be the highest paid jobs. They're more likely to be fun, interesting, swanky jobs largely done by people with family wealth who don't need to worry too much about the salary. No employer paying very high salaries is going to do so out of the goodness of their heart. They'll want the best qualified people and they'll expect their pound of flesh.

And of course your life choices count for a lot as well. There are plenty of women on Mumsnet who post on the "What age were you had your DC?" threads smugly saying, "I had all my three before the age of 30, I couldn't imagine leaving it any later than that." And there are women saying, "I was a SAHM for years and it was hard but we made do, I can't imagine putting my one year old in nursery to be cared for by strangers, I don't understand why people have children if they're going to do that." Some of these women will be the same posters claiming that £62k is an absurdly high salary and that anyone earning that much should be grateful, apparently oblivious to the fact that there is a link between having all your children in your 20s and spending years as a SAHM, and not earning £62k.

Some people just don't want to accept that their lifestyle choices have financial consequences.

I think that the problem came when what is supposed to be actually not even high standard became "priviledge" in people's minds.
Eg. "Well you were obviously priviledged not go to ofsted failing school"

The reality is that house prices in particular are so out of step with salaries that even people earning top wages (which require an awful lot of personal sacrifice) but without family money will be less well off than people earning average wages but with family money.

Exactly! It's the family money that in many cases is more important than the salary as it's very difficult to outearn that.

I know, if you'd read my previous posts I say the same. I'm just pointing out that some people are resentful towards those on a good wage, and others (or sometimes the same people) are conversely resentful to people on benefits for getting support.

When inequality goes up so do things like envy

It's sort of well known standard behaviour

@Garethkeenansstapler

As it goes, I don't really disagree with what you're saying either. There are no easy answers.

Ultimately, I tend to think that the state doesn't owe people as much as some think it does. If some people put as much effort into getting on as they put into asking the government to give them free stuff (stolen from others) they might end up with plenty.

That doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for plenty of people, but there is only so much you can do.

But anyway.

Some people just don't want to accept that their lifestyle choices have financial consequences.

There’s a strong culture on MN that choices shouldn’t haven’t consequences full stop, that the state should intervene to pick up the tab for every bad foreseeable decision, whether that’s paying for a care home for a woman who has never worked and lived off her husband, or housing and feeding a woman who does nothing but pop out kids with feckless men who refuse to pay CMS.

Times are hard for many people. Wealth inequality continues to grow in the UK. I think it's only natural envy will increase. Some posters on MN do sometimes appear blind to their privilege.

This. My family emigrated because the country I’m from was collapsing into civil war. The final straw was my mother and I managing to narrowly avoid an airstrike. They came to the UK, took advantage of opportunities that were never available to them in the countries they came from, and became wealthy. Have my brother and I benefited from that? Yes. Do we come from a background of wealth and privilege? No.

Incidentally my parents are both from communist countries. Despite the state ideology, people absolutely aspired to, and wanted, more. As is human nature. The UK may not be perfect, but it absolutely provides opportunities to achieve.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/200k-a-year-and-struggling-affluence-isnt-what-it-was-6sdmx3ml8

I saw this in the Times this morning. Rather relevant to this thread. Hope the link works. An enviable lifestyle costs twice as much as spit did 40 years ago even allowing for inflation apparently.

@User98866 I saw that but so many people just don't get it

@whumpthereitis but you benefited from your parents wealth like I did. Why would that not make you have some privilege?

The majority who do not earn 6 figure salaries and cannot afford to send their children to private schools have always been able to rely on the state system for education and health.

When state provision deteriorates through underfunding, those with money can simply turn to the private sector. The rest suddenly find themselves unable to provide their loved ones with essential levels of education and care and it makes them (not unreasonably) angry.

This is a very good point. Anger at (for example) private schools has risen in proportion to the degradation of public services. People are more comfortable with other people’s privilege if they feel the state supports them in trying to level the playing field.

Which is why IMHO people were more tolerant of this under the New Labour government than now. It’s very clear that this present government is trying to strip away what state support does exist.

I agree with this. The more unequal society, the more envy there is.

The UK is slap bang average in terms of wealth inequality when compared to other OECD countries. America, Germany, Sweden and Ireland are all less equal than us and France is around the same. None of the OECD countries are significantly more equal.

I think this tells you a lot about human nature and how to run decent economies. Those who think a Eutopia should exist where everyone has equal wealth should realise that there is a reason why the model hasn't been adopted by other countries either and that this isn't the route to prosperity.

But there is a truth that privilege gets you to the point of becoming a lawyer. Private education or tutors, extracurricular activities. Plus help with uni fees, some students have to work a lot to make it work whereas others don't have to. THAT'S what I get upset about. The idea that you're there due to hard work, which is only part of the story.

New Labour largely managed to leave the wealthy alone to create wealth. Inequality in 2008 was higher than now incidentally but people were fine with it. The exposure that created that wealth got us in to trouble in the crash of course.

But one thing they didn’t do was capitalise on ‘hating the rich’ - so no extra tax on private school, no extra taxes at top end, Nom Dom status still intact. These things are vote winners but bring very poor return.

The vibe is different though - hating the rich drives people out. Where the U.K. goes next is concerning. I think we could survive the pandemic and war, it was hard yes and big mistakes were made imo for the former - not really the latter although so much has been paid out. This has cost a fortune but is forgotten.

Basically the rot of you can’t succeed here will be the end of good times for more than just the higher income. They’ll be fine somewhere else. Countries love them.

I think there’s a misapprehension from the well paid (especially those who’ve been highly paid from the get go), that well paid jobs are generally harder than poorly paid jobs. Even from my own experience I disagree with that, I’ve never been so tired as when I was working two catering jobs paid minimum wage. I’m currently paid the best I’ve ever been and although at times it’s very stressful I can’t say I can’t as bone tired.

If you get stuck in minimum wage jobs it takes a vast amount of luck and effort to get out of that cycle, one friend did this by going back to uni aged 30 after having kids and then working out a specialist career. It’s obvious that it was harder for her than it was for me going to uni at a more “normal” age and then having that basis to work from.

People generally lack humility and don’t want to see that they’ve sometimes had an easier time of it than others, it diminishes their achievements. My own mum told me recently that their lovely house was all down to their working their arses off- and they did - but I know perfectly well that rich auntie X helped them with the deposit. That stuff is often left out of the narrative. Not on purpose I think, just seems to be human nature.