Increase in culture of envy

[BrighteyesBonnie]

AIBU to think that the culture of envy has increased significantly in the UK (if Mumsnet is anything to go by)?

For example, a thread by a lawyer asking whether their current salary is fair given their qualifications and years of experience contained a lot of responses angry that the OP is earning more than them and also ridiculing the OP for wanting a better salary.

Another example are threads on private schools, where there is a strong undercurrent of anger at those who are sending or want to send their children to private schools. Privately educated people are viewed with harsh lenses and often insulted.

Ambition and doing well do not appear to be appreciated if you’re doing better than the average.

’The culture of envy’ is a bit like ‘be kind’. Basically used to shut up the peasants from ever making a valid complaint whilst the top 1% quaff champagne and caviar whilst worrying about which top school little Hugo will go to, all whilst millions of children can’t eat. Some people just don’t live in the real world. For that I am a bit envious because it’s pretty shit.

I was watching The Coronation yesterday when the young choir were singing. I thought how very unfair it is that the children in it were very likely invited to such an historical event because of the extortionate amount their parents were able to pay for their schooling.

It made me ponder what it would be like to live in a genuine meritocracy where no one could pay for a social standing leg-up.

I work in a private school and it is staggering how many more very ordinary children with very little ambition go on to have extraordinary lives when in state schools there are so many more determined, highly intelligent children both socially and intellectually who will never reach such heights.

Having such an arbitrary class system ingrained in our society prevents our country from benefitting from the best brains in our law firms and businesses because we allow mediocrity to win the day.

We are so beguiled by the smoke and mirrors of *fancy schools where (believe me) a huge proportion of school fees are spent on marketing and making the grounds look slick- not the actual provision for the children, which I would say is less rigorous than that of the state sector.

OP, I disagree with your assumption that it’s a, ‘culture of envy’. It’s just people seeing things for what they are and truth bombs 💣 being launched into vastly decreasing groups of very privileged people.

Of course it’s uncomfortable to swallow the truth when you are benefitting from unfair systems.

Calling it ‘envy’ suggests a character weakness in those that call out the unfairness but I think the weakness comes from the scared privileged that can feel the tide turning and are grabbing on to anything they can.

*The last elections have indicated that Labour will probably win the next GE. Labour have already pledged to take charity status away from independent schools, meaning that all parents will have to find 20% more money to afford school fees. As it is the teachers in these schools are paid well under the odds for their skills so this cost will be passed on to parents.

Some parents won’t be able to afford this hike and hopefully things will start to become a little more equal.

The OP of the salary thread also is not earning a six figure salary. And she didn't conjure her law degree from nowhere, she studied hard for it and is still paying it off. Most posters with some actual knowledge of the relevant employment market thought there was a good chance she is in fact being underpaid, but the thread was hijacked by bitter teachers telling her she should be grateful.

Absolutely this.

The number of posters on here moaning about the government announcing extra funded childcare was eye opening. All.this hand wringing about the fact that it is clearly better for children to be at home with a parent until the age of three and that the government doesn't care and wants children to be "brought up by strangers".

Sorry, but who exactly do you think should pay for you to stay at home until your youngest child is three?

@GrandpianoCoffee you said:

”*The last elections have indicated that Labour will probably win the next GE. Labour have already pledged to take charity status away from independent schools, meaning that all parents will have to find 20% more money to afford school fees. As it is the teachers in these schools are paid well under the odds for their skills so this cost will be passed on to parents.

Some parents won’t be able to afford this hike and hopefully things will start to become a little more equal.”

In other words drag them done to even things? So equality is obtained by bringing those doing better off a peg down?

Th 65k in bham is an interesting one. I knew before i clicked there would be a load of
"Im a nurse i make x" "i am a carer and i make y. You are disgusting and a money grabber"

Because no one wants to face the fact inequity is now rife and society is fucked salary wise. Social mobility is now basically extinct. Its a huge problem and people want to pretend its not happening.

There is this myth that 60k a year is enough to live like a king.
It is.... if you are 50 and mortgage free.
If you are late20s early 30s and not claiming benefits or in social housing its "okay" but you are shopping in aldi and you buy your clothes in the sales. You are not living it up and drowning in gucci.

There is this myth that 60k a year is enough to live like a king.
It is.... if you are 50 and mortgage free.
If you are late20s early 30s and not claiming benefits or in social housing its "okay" but you are shopping in aldi and you buy your clothes in the sales. You are not living it up and drowning in gucci.

This! Which is why I defended the OP. Housing & wage stagnation has really fucked things for younger people.

@BrighteyesBonnie I don't really have an issue with private schools & may use them myself. However I don't see why they should have charitable status, why do you?

Sorry, but who exactly do you think should pay for you to stay at home until your youngest child is three?

I think there should be far more support for young families, have you seen birth rates? I would make child benefit universal as it use to be.

@User98866 do you know what the bottom of the salary range is that takes you into 1%. What is your definition of wealthy?

Yes, absolutely.

If you're on £62k in Birmingham and you have a partner than I would expect you to be able to get on the property ladder. But so what? The fact that being able to buy a modest house at the age of 30 is seen as a sign of wealth these days says it all, doesn't it?

My dad never earned £62k but he did buy a town house in Guildford for £20k in 1979 when he was 24. That's the difference.

@GeeHDees Well done. I'm also sick of this 'recognise your privilege' stuff.

I'm from a FSM family, had a drunken abusive father who got his kicks bullying children, threw me out for the first time at 15, and literally fought to prevent me going to university because he hadn't been and 'his taxes shouldn't be wasted educating women'.

I didn't give up either, worked throughout to survive and have built a successful career enabling me to provide a decent life for me & my ds. Some of the things I've had to do to get here would cause horror on MN.

Very few people have perfect childhoods and it would be far better to recognise people's determination and achievement, than try to dismiss those achievements with 'it's all down to privilege'.

Surely your financial status is the sum of your own efforts . Education is free , work hard , apply yourself , grab opportunities , be flexible . Good things will come . I've worked with some real achievers who've literally had nothing as kids and turned their lives around . Those kind of people were valued far more for their real grit and determination over someone essentially lazy because they've never strived for anything . It's all about aspiration but in this country we prefer to vilify and drag down anyone successful .

But more hours of funded childcare IS more support for young families.

I think it's terrible that so many women can't afford to go back to work because the cost of childcare would exceed what they can earn. It keeps women in a poverty trap and the effects last for far longer than the years their children are actually small. Subsidised childcare would/will help massively.

But there were women on here moaning about that policy because what they want is for the taxpayer - people like that solicitor in Birmingham on £62k, who is paying 40% tax and 9% student loan repayments on the top slice of her earnings - to pay for them to just stay at home.

Agree this kind of dragging things down isn’t going to improve anything

It’s depressing to see

Its not a sin to say youve worked hard to get where you are, if others get offended by that and assume people are then suggesting they havent then thats unfortunate but its sad people can't be proud of themselves without being torn down or accused of needing to check their privilege

It's not about that though. I worked hard as did DH. But our "success" is also attributed to parental investment, access to excellent schools, financial help etc which is now playing out in turn for my dc. It's also about the safety net which makes risk much easier.
Obviously some go onto to great success despite not have invested parents etc. But if I look at my peers at my work, neighbourhood, dcs school etc we tend to come from similar backgrounds

@MargotBamborough I wasn't aware the more funded hours had started?

Removing charitable status is not going to help those doing worse-off than you.

Demonising the “boat people “ will not put more money in your pocket or improve your life markedly. Asking for policies to take more away from those doing better than you will not make your life better.

A more productive society, a growing economy will make your life better. There is inequality and a lot of that has been driven by low productivity and making working less attractive.

Most likely, the inequality gap people are most concerned with isn’t the solicitor on £62k but rather the millionaires and billionaires. People on 6 figure salaries are not living it up and drinking champagne. They do not get the support of benefits. They pay 60% tax on some of their income and can’t escape this compared to millionaires and billionaires who can avoid paying their fair share of taxes.

I'm not sure it's envy.

However, it can be frustrating to hear individuals who earn six-figure salaries complain about financial difficulties while owning expensive homes and sending their children to private schools.

Such behaviour comes across as lacking perspective and understanding of the financial challenges faced by those genuinely struggling to make ends meet.

And any threads I saw tended to be older people moaning about funding more free hours as opposed to the unemployed 🤷🏻‍♀️

They haven't, yet. But people on here were moaning about that policy the moment it was announced.

I thought I was hallucinating.

Women on Mumsnet complaining about the government announcing plans for more subsidised childcare? What?

@produ Don't assume your peers 'tend to come from similar backgrounds'.

Those who had a tough childhood seldom talk about it and allow those around them to think otherwise so they can fit in.

@BrighteyesBonnie you are still misunderstanding....

I don't have an issue with the removal of charitable status, it doesn't impact on my decision to use private schools or not. But your argument for keeping it is it won't make others better off, I have not said it would...It's not much of an argument.

Explain the accident of birth please versus life choices. So the majority of those deemed to be doing well is not because of anything they did?

It's not that it has nothing to do with anything they did, it's that it's very likely that in many or most cases, what they did to make them do well was facilitated by accidents of birth. Obviously not in all cases, but very often.

I teach in a fantastic school which has a great record of supporting students with low income backgrounds in doing fantastically well at school and going on to do really well, but this isn't so common across the board.

But I did work hard and my success is squarely down to that. Its great if you recognise that you had a leg up and support which has helped you, but it's taboo for anyone to say it and there are many of us out there who have succeeded against the odds but are shot down for talking about it or made to feel guilty for not living on the breadline anymore.