Increase in culture of envy

[BrighteyesBonnie]

AIBU to think that the culture of envy has increased significantly in the UK (if Mumsnet is anything to go by)?

For example, a thread by a lawyer asking whether their current salary is fair given their qualifications and years of experience contained a lot of responses angry that the OP is earning more than them and also ridiculing the OP for wanting a better salary.

Another example are threads on private schools, where there is a strong undercurrent of anger at those who are sending or want to send their children to private schools. Privately educated people are viewed with harsh lenses and often insulted.

Ambition and doing well do not appear to be appreciated if you’re doing better than the average.

I didn't see anything wrong with the salary post that inspired this thread. The fact is salaries have gone no way for years & the fact some earn less doesn't make that any less relevant.

@PriOn1 is Mumsnet not open to people like the solicitor on £62k to ask about questions that concern her? She should do what exactly? Shut up and hide in shame for daring to earn what she does and wanting more?

If someone earning more triggers you, then don’t feel compelled to read or comment. The cost of living crisis is affecting everyone and it is not an excuse to silence some or make them the enemy.

I don’t really get it, clearly there are a huge number of people who have more money than me. I don’t feel affronted by it and it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to talk about their lives. I don’t take it as a personal insult that they have been more financially successful (and sure there are a bunch of things that go into that, background, opportunity, IQ, work ethic etc and some lucky bastards literally do have everything handed to them on a plate). People are rarely saying “mwahaha I am so wealthy because I am soooo much better than you, you peasants!”.

I’m actually quite curious about how people organise their lives, what spending priorities they have. Theres a lot of tone policing these days “read the room OP”. It’s like the ghost of the three yorkshiremen haunt mumsnet sometimes.

Brighteyes, and you want to silence the naysayers yourself

Why don’t you ask your government rather than bash those you perceive as doing better? You think being angry at some because they can buy a better house than you or they earn more than you will help you? Will make you feel better?

You may want high earners to be brought down a peg and yes the government can tax them more (and blunt ambition). Will you really benefit from dragging people down whilst the millionaires and businesses escape higher taxes? Would people feel encouraged to pursue higher paid jobs if they are facing an effective marginal rate of tax above 45% and in some case above 60%? And when these professions have a shortage of staff, and society is worse-off for it, what will you say?

A mindset of dragging people back down is not going to work.

Hardly. I’m simply asking why the naysayers are angry at individuals posting on Mumsnet or their neighbours? Why not the government? Why blast a poster for earning £62k and wanting what’s fair for her professional experience? What blast a parent for being able to send their child to a private school? Why blast a person who is able to buy a better house than you?

Why not blast the government and the super rich (eg, the amount spent to put a crown on an already very wealthy King)?

'If something triggers you then don't read or comment' - your words brighteyes

I agree with you OP. It's almost like people want everyone to be struggling.

There’s an awful lot of entitlement on here when it comes to benefits. They seem to be seen as a bottomless pit of cash that can be dipped into because you don’t fancy working full time, or because you want a change of job, or you’re going through a divorce, or have made crappy financial decisions. You see it all the time - poster announces they’re leaving their husband and rather than encourage them to find their own job and independence, it’s all ‘See what benefits you are entitled to’, ‘Can you put in a UC claim’ ‘Don’t worry UC will pay your rent’.

This is also very true.

I don't agree with private education, and all my kids do very well without it - envy is the cry of the hard of thinking

@BrighteyesBonnie I asked you as you were asking another poster, I was interested if you actually had any ideas?

I think you have misunderstood my post... A mindset of dragging people back down is not going to work. Where have I said this? 😆

I don't know envy is the right word, and I find it hard to articulate but yes you are right, and it's not just on here. There's a very real reason we have brain drain and many qualified professionals leaving to work abroad, it's worrying.

There was a thread about junior doctors pay and some posters were saying they shouldn't be paid more than someone who works in a supermarket which is quite frankly batshit crazy- that sums it up for me.

It’s about not blasting an OP because their success bothers you. Surely, this is clear to you?

You are under no obligation to read a thread an blast the OP for not reading the room or for wanting better or more.

You really are under no obligation to pour anger at someone else. This is not about silencing any naysayer unless you think it is entirely right to be hateful towards those doing better than you, the subject of my OP.

Direct your frustration and anger at the appropriate people - your government. Also it is the case that the choices we make in life will impact on how successful we are financially. You can’t blame your neighbour for where you choices have taken you in life.

Why blast a poster for earning £62k and wanting what’s fair for her professional experience? What blast a parent for being able to send their child to a private school? Why blast a person who is able to buy a better house than you?

I was on that thread & defended the OP. However I can still recognise there is an issue with inequality though & social mobility is not improving.

The concept of "the culture of envy" is a convenient smokescreen so people don't have to consider their privilege.

The concept of "the culture of envy" is a convenient smokescreen so people don't have to consider their privilege

yep

Brighteyes, you seem to be directing anger at me now - but it's a public forum, and you have every right

It's a weird race to the bottom underpinned by entitlement and a complete lack of understanding about how economics work.

So many on this forum genuinely believe that there is unlimited money to be spent and if it wasn't for the nasty government then we could accept all the desperate asylum seekers, give the disabled and sick unlimited help, ensure all children have a fantastic education and enable people to work the hours that suit them doing a job they enjoy with a massively subsidised lifestyle.

When someone inevitably points out that all of this would need to be funded somehow then you are met with the inevitable responses of 'tax the rich' (i.e. people wealthier than them). They never ever consider the fact that growing our stagnant economy would actually be a much more effective mechanism of working towards their aims and that actually you need rich people investing in business and entrepreneurs taking risks in a bid to become wealthy to drive this. Why would anyone bother doing anything to grow the economy if there is no incentive to do so?

Okay, okay. I was simply responding to your post. I’ll ignore your posts going forward and not engage with you.

Almost everyone has privilege in some way and has something that someone else could be jealous about. It isn't just about money and envy rarely helps the person that feels hard done by.

I have absolutely beautiful friends, friend with fantastic supportive families, friends that are naturally clever or incredibly skilled etc. I could choose to dwell on how they have advantages over me and ask them to 'examine' their privilege but what would that mean and how would it realistically help me? The reality is many of the friends that I think have these privileges don't actually necessarily agree that they have them in the first place and aren't necessarily in a position to share the spoils of their privilege with me.

For example, everyone is the UK is relatively privileged compared to the poorest people in the world who are literally dying or drought and famine. They could turn to someone on benefits in the UK and ask them to examine their relative privilege (which they undeniably would have if they can eat at all and drink clean water) and ask them to share the wealth to literally save lives. The person on benefits doesn't feel wealthy enough to do this. Who is wrong in this scenario? Wealth is relative, privilege is relative and envy is a dark and unhelpful force.

The majority who do not earn 6 figure salaries and cannot afford to send their children to private schools have always been able to rely on the state system for education and health.

When state provision deteriorates through underfunding, those with money can simply turn to the private sector. The rest suddenly find themselves unable to provide their loved ones with essential levels of education and care and it makes them (not unreasonably) angry.

They cannot suddenly conjure a degree in law or medicine or a well-paid career out of nowhere and are resentful of those who can.

Their envy should instead be targeted at politicians here and overseas who have created the circumstances, not blame someone who has spent years studying, taking the risk of student debt and (in the case of doctors are HCPs themselves).

But stressed worried people aren't logical. And it doesn't hurt to be sensitive of that fact.

And then there's the people who just don't agree with private education

What privilege exactly? Again, speaking for myself and I know it’s true for many like me: Given my background, I was told I am not entitled to anything and had to work 10 times as hard to get anywhere. That’s the privilege I and many others like me are entitled to and reminded of it often. We remain a problem and the focus of many who are looking for someone or a group to blame.

The idea that most people who is doing better than you is doing so because of privilege is just lazy. You are doing better than someone else. Is that solely because of your privilege and what privilege would that be?

Its not a sin to say youve worked hard to get where you are, if others get offended by that and assume people are then suggesting they havent then thats unfortunate but its sad people can't be proud of themselves without being torn down or accused of needing to check their privilege.

I grew up in poverty with addicts, my life was pretty much mapped out as leaving school as soon as possible to get earning as soon as possible to support the household and my parents addiction. I didn't, I sofa surfed my way through college and spent hours upon hours applying for universities, basing my decision on the scholarships, bursaries and part time jobs on offer. I worked night shifts, any hours I could alongside studying and despite being sectioned twice for my MH (which still isn't great) I graduated and pulled myself out of the mess I was born into. Others I grew up with chose not to do the same- they had the same opportunities but didn't want to and now complain about how unfair it all is.

Of course everyone should have enough to live, but I hate being made to feel guilty for improving my lot in life, like I should be ashamed, don't deserve it, had immense privilege where others didn't.

The reasoning always follow this line and yes as to reason why - low awareness of economics and race to the bottom for everyone. It’s going to get worse in all likelihood. Depressing times

op yanbu the site has changed. At least for the vote majority response is yanbu

The difference between £50k and £62 when you take into account that 49% of it will he deducted at source (higher rate tax and student loan repayments) isn't actually that much.