To think that there would be less anti private school

[Poopoolittlekitten]

sentiment or threads on MN if people using private school were a tiny bit more self aware and didn’t ask for sympathy for rising fees or possible rising fees if Labour take away their false ‘charity’ status?

send your kid private if you want, just don’t come moaning about the costs or claim than anyone can go private if they ‘prioritise’ their child’s education they way you do. Particularly at a time when state school teachers are striking over pay and conditions.
And many, many people are working their socks off just to keep a roof over their family’s head.

YANBU - stop whining and looking for sympathy about your fees!

YABU - my milkman sends his 4 kids private by ‘prioritising’ their education so it’s not just for whiny poshos….

I do agree that there are cultural (as well as economic) factors at play here. I was not born British, my DH came here very young (his family were asylum seekers). Its no coincidence that a huge proportion of children in the most selective London schools (state and independent) are Indian or SE Asian. In fact, I would say hardly any children have two white British parents.

I do think there is a general malaise / blame culture in the U.K. and I'm not sure what can be done about it. Maybe it's a side effect of a declining Western nation as other countries are overtaking. When my DD (briefly) attended a London comp, the teachers were so busy dealing with 'attendance targets' (and obnoxious, disinterested parents), you would think that was all there was to school - just managing to show up! Getting 8 GCSEs at 4 and above was seen as 'success'. They put reasonably able children in the 'gifted and talented' stream - they still came out with 6s and maybe the odd 7. How is it helpful to tell children they are 'gifted and talented' when they are just broadly average. So many kids have reasons they can't sit exams or attend certain lessons - 'mental health,' 'micro aggressions' and god knows what. Teachers were more like social workers and constantly having to pander to all this, with no support from families.

I remember the first state primary I looked at when DD was 4. The head said, 'I'll have to let you out the back exit because we have issues with vicious dogs at the main gate." She also said, 'If you do have the means to go elsewhere, I would explore those options..' That was the head!

I do agree with a lot of the latter posts and said as much earlier on. You can punish the private school sector as much as you want but that won’t fix anything. There’s a large anti education element in the UK.

I’ve said earlier in the thread that I have DC in both state and private. One reason I moved one of them to private is there was a large cohort of parents apparently obsessed with kids playing. All attempts by the school to get the kids to do more homework were met with furious WhatsApps about ‘playing’. It’s my view that there is plenty of time for children to play over 24hrs. I don’t send my kids to school to play. I send them to be educated. I supported the school and DC did all of their homework but I was made to feel like a freak by some of the parents so I moved DC1 to a private school. Since then I’ve had many a snipe about DC1 being at a private school and some of those presents are probably on here campaigning to make it more expensive in order to punish me for my choices. It’s ridiculous.

I’m half 1st generation British (one immigrant parent). I know from my DM what it is to genuinely have nothing. So many multi gen native Brits don’t know how good they have it and are so willing to waste it. At school I was called a ‘boff’ because I wanted to learn and some of those same people who laughed at me for being a boff complain that people like me have more than them. I don’t want the same for my DC.

The developing worlds children will not skip a beat and those are the kids my kids will have to compete with for good jobs. They will be studying during the day and playing at the weekend and a bit after school. Homework will be done and I want the school and teachers to have the same high expectations I do.

"What has made you so certain that your opinion is right that you can't bring yourself to keep an open mind?"

Oh please - go ahead and explain the justice you see in the best supported, financially best off and usually most able children having vastly more resources invested in their education than 93% of other children.

Please.

Izimbra what else do you think should be banned on grounds of unfairness?

"So, all these “spoon-fed” privately educated children with immoral, selfish parents are going to improve the state schools if they move to them?"

First off - the most powerful and influential people within the establishment of this country are deeply invested in maintaining the currently hideously unfair education system, because by and large their children benefit from it.

And that includes many people on the left, particularly in the arts and media.

So it won't change.

And it won't change because it's not just about schools. It's about wider society and the economy. The UK is a very, very unequal country. Socially. Economically. Geographically.

We have vast and growing wealth inequality, and vast and growing health inequality.

And our education system is an expression of that.

But at the very least we shouldn't be bolstering educational inequality through our tax system. Private schools should not have charitable status.

And for those people arguing that it'll cost the tax payer more if some kids leave private schools because their parents can no longer pay fees - well state schools in most of the SE and SW are currently experiencing falling rolls, which is impacting negatively on school budgets and in some places resulting in schools having to close. More pupils = more money, because the money follows the child.

And more middle class kids pushes schools up local league tables, which in makes it easier for a school to recruit and maintain quality staff. Schools are communities - children don't just benefit from the input of teachers, they also learn from each other. The more social and educational capital there is in the student body, the faster the pace of learning. In addition middle class parents raise money for schools and contribute to running of the school through their voluntary work. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/14/wealthy-parents-stoke-school-divide

I agree with you! Apologies I think maybe I could've expressed myself better, my point is basically to value education and respect it. The elements I'm talking about include academia but also social behavior, respect teachers and the process of learning.

Out of interest - those people vigorously defending the profound inequality of educational opportunity for children that private schools represent, how many of you feel particularly strongly about this because your own children are at fee paying schools?

How many of you have kids at state schools but you're at peace with them having to compete for the best university places and jobs with other kids who've had vastly more invested in their primary and secondary education?

In addition middle class parents raise money for schools and contribute to running of the school through their voluntary work.

There are loads of middle class children at state schools - including those of posters on here who are constantly boasting about their ethics and morals.
Most Labour mps children go to state school (look at the uproar when Diane Abbot’s son went to private school).
Why aren’t all these middle class parents doing something? If there are only 7% of children at private schools then these capable, public spirited parents are going to be spread pretty thinly.
Also it’s very patronising to think only private school parents can improve schools.

My friend's son got a half scholarship to a private school. They were going to turn it down, but when they mentioned it to the head of the state primary he attended, she said 'Borrow from a relative. Steal the money!' That's how much faith the head teachers have in the state system.

Has it ever occurred to you that the point in an education is to learn to spell and add up? You know, so that the bridges don't fall down.

"I agree with you that parenting is quite determinative."

Of course it is. But a pupil with highly supportive parents at a state school is likely to do less well at A level than a pupil with highly supportive parents who's at a fee paying school.

Because by and large you get what you pay for.

Kids at state schools have approximately 6K to 7.5K a year spent on their education. Kids in private schools usually have at least twice that much.

There are plenty of middle class children in the state sector, in fact the vast majority of middle class children are in the state sector. Forcing more of their children to sit next to troubled kids to show them a good example will not fix low aspirations and apathy in a sizeable percentage of the general population.

There are a large number of people out there who think pushing yourself hard educationally is for ‘girly swots’. It’s a cultural issue, VAT will not fix that attitude.

"Has it ever occurred to you that the point in an education is to learn to spell and add up? You know, so that the bridges don't fall down."

Is that what you've told your children? Are they at state schools?

No skin in the game for me as mines just a baby and I will most likely leave the UK when she's older - very undecided.
But where does it end though? Should the UK have affirmative action like the US? Should immigrants from former colonies be given an advantage to selective state schools and top universities vs local British native white because these people come from a more disadvantaged position.
What's the OFSTED rating of the schools that your children attend and how much do the houses on your street cost now? Because from what I understand state school admissions are a postcode lottery?

How many of you have kids at state schools but you're at peace with them having to compete for the best university places and jobs with other kids who've had vastly more invested in their primary and secondary education?

My kids are at private school and I'm at peace that this counts against them for university offers as they've had certain advantages. But doesn't count so much against offers for our local top-performing not a grammar but really a grammar.

And someone who was head girl at a private school, parent earns well into six figures but received an unconditional offer from one of the more prestigious universities due to their postcode. Genuinely, that's ok with me.

I went to a grammar school and (in investment banking), employers were falling over themselves to employ state school educated women. It benefited me hugely.

Rather than a race to the bottom by abolishing private schools, why not focus on how to improve state schools? Because it doesn't benefit state school pupils to have an influx of more pupils to fund, parents who will price everyone else out of the best catchments and pay for private tuition where needed to gain a similar advantage.

"Has it ever occurred to you that the point in an education is to learn to spell and add up?"

This is from the prospectus of the hugely successful and very expensive (25K a year) private school near my kid's hugely overcrowded and skint comprehensive.

"The aims of our school:

• Developing curiosity, wonder, creativity and a love of learning;
• Inspiring ambition and intellectual rigour through excellent teaching and learning;
• Cultivating discovery and opportunity through an outstanding co-curriculum;
• Fostering awareness, leadership and connection"

You think the purpose of state schools is to churn out workers?

DD is on a certain pathway to Uni due to our postcode.
I have told them she shouldn’t qualify but they insist

In modern day UK instead of aspiring for this to be the vision of the state school, there will be a bunch of people trying to take this away from the private school.

"In modern day UK instead of aspiring for this to be the vision of the state school, there will be a bunch of people trying to take this away from the private school."

Relax - nobody's going to 'take away' the educational privileges of the 7% of children who attend private schools. There's simply no appetite for it among the establishment, for obvious reasons.

No kids here. My parents moved to the UK from a communist country when I was a child and sent me to a private school. They valued the freedom and opportunities offered by western countries, moreso than they did a stagnant (and failed) fair society’. Funny, that.

Excellent. But given that you realize this, wouldn’t you be better served then by focusing your energy and efforts on improving the state sector?

"They valued the freedom and opportunities offered by western countries, more so than they did a stagnant (and failed) fair society’. Funny, that."

What would have happened if your parents couldn't have afforded a private school?

And you'd have been sent to the local state school?

Would you have had a better or worse education than that you could have gained at a school in Russia?

"Excellent. But given that you realize this, wouldn’t you be better served then by focusing your energy and efforts on improving the state sector?"

How do you suggest the state sector could be improved to make it equal to the private sector?

To double the spend per head to create parity between the state and private sector?

To allow all state schools to exclude difficult to teach, socially disadvantaged pupils, like private schools do?

Suggestions please :-)

Aha, so not only do you expect private school parents and those in favor of private schools to enact changes in state schools, but you expect them to formulate ideas on how to do so in the first place.

That’s a lot of responsibility you’re expecting others to take on your behalf.

It wasn’t Russia.

No idea, because they could and they did.