To think that there would be less anti private school

[Poopoolittlekitten]

sentiment or threads on MN if people using private school were a tiny bit more self aware and didn’t ask for sympathy for rising fees or possible rising fees if Labour take away their false ‘charity’ status?

send your kid private if you want, just don’t come moaning about the costs or claim than anyone can go private if they ‘prioritise’ their child’s education they way you do. Particularly at a time when state school teachers are striking over pay and conditions.
And many, many people are working their socks off just to keep a roof over their family’s head.

YANBU - stop whining and looking for sympathy about your fees!

YABU - my milkman sends his 4 kids private by ‘prioritising’ their education so it’s not just for whiny poshos….

"I don't think increasing tax on private schools will solve inequality"

Of course not - and nobody's suggesting it will, so that's a bad faith argument.

But awarding charitable status to schools whose primary role is to magnify and entrench the privilege of those children least in need of educational charity, is a contributory factor to structural inequality in our education system, and on those grounds should be removed.

You're not even acknowledging my main point that parents need to take more responsibility and that education isn't given as much emphasis in the UK as it is in other countries like Asia !

That's not the primary role of private schools.

Parents protecting their children when they have the opportunity to do so. How shocking a concept.

Exactly the same thing occurred in the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, where private schooling was indeed made unavailable. Instead, families with connections and means bribed their way into better educational facilities.

Eliminating private schooling (which isn’t going to happen, anyway) won’t solve the issues faced by the state sector. It isn’t the responsibility of parents who pay for private education to solve the problems in the state sector. They are responsible for their own children. The majority of parents in the UK state educate their children, and they would be better served agitating for change within the sector they use, rather than focusing on one they don’t.

"You're not even acknowledging my main point that parents need to take more responsibility and that education isn't given as much emphasis in the UK as it is in other countries like Asia !"

I agree - that if we could wave a wand over the UK and change all the social mores that have evolved over centuries, and English people would be magically culturally transformed so that they have identical values to Asian people raised in a different social setting, then it would be educationally beneficial for children.

But I'm dealing with reality, not fantasy.

It’s up to the Charity Commission to remove it if they find reason to do so. The government isn’t the one that gets to make that call, and it also isn’t a decision that is based on the opinions of the public.

There was a court case in 2011 that laid this all out.

You're very rude.

"The majority of parents in the UK state educate their children, and they would be better served agitating for change within the sector they use, rather than focusing on one they don’t."

I agree.

We should lobby to remove the charitable status from private schools until they start offering places to the children most in need of educational charity - disadvantaged children currently failing in the state sector.

This would also take pressure of state schools who are struggling to provide the type of holistic and individualised support for these needy pupils that private schools market themselves as excelling in.

And then we should place an expectation on all publicly funded institutions - universities, government, the judiciary, the civil service - that the educational background of their employees at every level is representative of society. If 93% of people in this country are state educated, there's no justification for the upper echelons of the judiciary, government and the civil service to come from private schools.

"You're very rude."

I can't help it - it's my instinctive response to someone defending a grotesque injustice towards children.

What has made you so certain that your opinion is right that you can't bring yourself to keep an open mind?

😂😂😂😂

fucking hell. Are you being deliberately obtuse? It’s got nothing to do with lobbying. The government doesn’t have the power to strip private schools of charity status.

No, what parents can do is focus on improving the state sector, instead of distracting themselves with the private sector that isn’t going anywhere, and/or expecting those that privately educate to solve the issues for them.

@whumpthereitis That’s very interesting! So when Labour say they will abolish the tax break if/when elected, they can’t actually do that? Where can I learn more about this?

@whumpthereitis I think you've made the point that I'm trying to
, very eloquently!

I'm not defending, I'm saying whether a tax is imposed or not it won't make an impact if people don't change their attitudes and prioritize education.

Are you suggesting that getting an education involves actual effort?? Don't be ridiculous. The only way to get an education in this country is buy one that's 'spoon fed' to you. Nobody else has any chance at all - and that's ALL down to the immoral, unaware, selfish people who send their kids to private school because they just DON'T CARE about everybody else's children and want to buy their own children an ADVANTAGE! If they sent their own children to state school, the state schools would all improve because education is something you breathe in through the air.

These are worth a read:
https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2011/10/18/independent-schools-are-still-charities-says-tribunal/amp/

https://www.counselmagazine.co.uk/articles/abolishing-private-schools-and-redistributing-their-assets-social-justice-at-the-expense-of-human-rights

the government can try to remove charitable status, but doing so is not only unlikely to succeed, but cost a substantial amount in regards to time and (public) money.

Parents in ‘prioritise their own children’ shocker! No shit. Those are the children they’re actually responsible for.

and by ‘spoon feeding’ you presumably mean ‘give pupils the required support to realize their potential’. Interesting that you’re framing this as a bad thing, yet want all children to benefit from it. What is it that you want? To improve the quality of state education, or worsen the education of those going private?

whumpthereitis - some private schools will voluntarily give up charitable status if they are whacked separately with a 20 VAT bill.

@notfromheregoggles - I agree with you that parenting is quite determinative. However, I disagree that all children have to be pushed academically all the way. I look up to some other countries like Switzerland and Scandinavian countries that have the balance right - good quality state education tailored to different types of children and a good work ethic. Good apprenticeships rather than making university the be and and end all.

If you can make a good living wage as a plumber, electrician or chef, command decent respect in society and enjoy it, that should be just as much of an aspired to path for some children as becoming a doctor or an academic.

I actually think primary education in the UK is pretty good and aspiration/expectations from teachers are quite high compared to many other European countries. Where things tend to go wrong is at secondary level.

@notfromheregoggles totally right in your observations the UK is so chippy lowest common denominator wins it really is a race to the bottom

And the court cases would commence. it isn’t as simple as ‘adding VAT’ and/or ‘removing charitable status’.

————————-

Also interesting to read:

“This paper has shown that the removal of charitable status from “private” independent schools and/or the redistribution of their assets to other schools may be possible, but would be fraught with legal difficulties. It would clearly require legislation, and fundamental changes to the law of charity, the law of property and/or the legal status of at least some existing non-”private” schools as well as “private” ones themselves. It may also violate the European Convention on Human Rights, particularly if the removal of charitable status and/or redistribution of assets would in substance prevent independent schools’ continued operation. But the ECHR implications are not, according to the analysis undertaken in this paper, nearly as clear-cut as some previous commentators have suggested. If any future Government (Labour or otherwise) were to remain wedded both to a policy of redistributing schools’ assets and to one of remaining a party to the Convention, that Government would in any case have to act very cautiously indeed.
The removal of certain benefits of charitable status, falling fairly considerably short of removing the status altogether, would be significantly easier, in the sense that it would necessitate fewer fundamental changes charity or education law and reduce the scope for challenge. But it would still require legislation and risk violating the European Convention unless carried out very carefully. Ultimately, this paper has cast light on dangerous uncertainty not only in the Labour Party’s 2019 proposal, but also in the law of charities and the European Convention.”

https://api.repository.cam.ac.uk/server/api/core/bitstreams/ca3f6629-73f0-48e6-ab6b-e857094d31f0/content

So, all these “spoon-fed” privately educated children with immoral, selfish parents are going to improve the state schools if they move to them?

https://journals.lww.com/apjoo/Fulltext/2022/02000/China_Turns_to_School_Reform_to_Control_the_Myopia.6.aspx

“There is now indisputable evidence of an epidemic of myopia and high myopia in parts of East and Southeast Asia, including mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau, Chinese Taipei (commonly called Taiwan), South Korea, Japan, and Singapore. In these locations, around 80% of students completing secondary schooling are myopic and need correction, while 10% to 20% of them are highly myopic,2,5,6 and are thus at high risk of developing potentially blinding pathological myopia.”

Too much reading, including of music, hours spent indoors, not enough time in daylight is detrimental to children’s sight.

So no, we should not be copying China in that regard.

the government can try to remove charitable status, but doing so is not only unlikely to succeed, but cost a substantial amount in regards to time and (public) money.

I agree but if it’s a class war issue then Labour don’t care how much time and money is wasted.

I don’t actually think there is the political will there to see it though. Keir Starmer knows he has to play to the base (see the vote in January, that he knew full well Labour would lose. Great optics though), but he’s a long way from being Jeremy Corbyn. He’s already walked back his statement on private schools in part, and explicitly praised their existence.