To think that there would be less anti private school

[Poopoolittlekitten]

sentiment or threads on MN if people using private school were a tiny bit more self aware and didn’t ask for sympathy for rising fees or possible rising fees if Labour take away their false ‘charity’ status?

send your kid private if you want, just don’t come moaning about the costs or claim than anyone can go private if they ‘prioritise’ their child’s education they way you do. Particularly at a time when state school teachers are striking over pay and conditions.
And many, many people are working their socks off just to keep a roof over their family’s head.

YANBU - stop whining and looking for sympathy about your fees!

YABU - my milkman sends his 4 kids private by ‘prioritising’ their education so it’s not just for whiny poshos….

"Aha, so not only do you expect private school parents and those in favor of private schools to enact changes in state schools, but you expect them to formulate ideas on how to do so in the first place."

Where did I say I expect parents with children at fee paying schools to legislate to change the way the school system in the UK is structured?

It would be silly of me to do that - you personally aren't in a position to effect systemic change, are you?

"No idea, because they could and they did."

But I thought you were defending the system of education we have here in the UK, where inequality of educational opportunity for children isn't just tolerated but is celebrated and defended?

that doesn’t require wasting mental energy on considering alternative realities. It’s a pointless exercise. Given that I haven’t been in any of the situations described above I have no idea what they would have done, what education I would have received, or what I would have thought about it.

Where is it celebrated?!

Yet you seem to think if private school parents suddenly decided to send their children to state school, that the state sector would improve. Clearly you think they would wield some power and impact. Unless of course you don’t actually want to improve state schools, you just resent parents that offer their children different.

"Yet you seem to think if private school parents suddenly decided to send their children to state school, that the state sector would improve."

Yes - I think it would. For the reasons that I've mentioned, namely the social capital that wealthy and powerful families have - schools are communities, and communities whose members have a high degree of economic and cultural capital tend to thrive best. I also think it would sharpen the focus of politicians from all ends of the political spectrum if they were personally invested in improving state schools.

"Unless of course you don’t actually want to improve state schools, you just resent parents that offer their children different."

I think you come at this from the position of someone who values above all else the rights of wealthy adults to spend their money how they wish, whereas I come at this issue from someone whose interest is children's rights, and fairness towards children.

@izimbra
Is there a parent group in your children's school? Perhaps you could lead this if there isn't one in place since you're so passionate about it. (I mean this in a kind way not condescending just in case the tone does not translate)
I don't get the logic of how middle income people will help improve state schools, I think any parent who is keen on improving the quality of education in their child's school could have an impact. You don't have to compete against the person on Eton - the whole point should be that your child's future is ultimately the best that it can be.

I attended a state school in my country and not one of the strongest performing ones. My principal would make the cohorts taking major national exams stay after school till 10pm a few times a week in the lead up to the exams- the gates would shut and parents were sent a letter ahead saying this was to be in place to help the children. Teachers would be supervising (there was a rota I think).
Not the most fun thing to do but it's to give a leg up against the more "posh" schools. It really did help!
My point is, if you're not on an even playing field there's ways to get around this whether it's parents in the schools getting together to contribute or accessing YouTube videos or hiring someone on Fiverr to explain a physics concept (you can do this for £10 with an instructor from India, I urge you to look up on Fiverr).
Instead of waiting for some legislation or law to come into place the onus is on you and the other parents in the school to make a change!
I'm indifferent to the political parties here, but the gov is using this whole Private vs State debacle to gain votes then not act upon improving the education system here. It's a distraction the same way they use Immigration policies to gain votes.

Lol! If private school closed parents wouldn’t just send their kids to the local sink estate school with a donation of saved school fees. They’d move to areas around notable state schools, hire tutors to home educate, and/or form educational cooperatives. Some would send their children abroad. The state sector wouldn’t be improved across the board, a handful of schools would effectively operate as state-backed private schools without the fees.

There was a two tier education system in actual communist countries that touted being founded on the principle of the equality. Well placed parents sent their kids to gymnasia and bribed officials in order to get them admitted into the top universities (alongside the children of said officials, who benefited from the positions their parents held). The children of parents that didn’t have that luxury got shoved into vocational schools.

The state sector wouldn’t be improved across the board, a handful of schools would effectively operate as state-backed private schools without the fees.

This is essentially what has happened to secondary schools in East Herts. There’s multiple outstanding schools which have been successful now for many years/generations of families. People have been moving into the area with their kids from Y4/5 onwards for years to get them in the catchment for secondary.

These schools may as well be private; you need £1.2m minimum for a house in the catchment areas. There’s no socially disadvantaged kids benefitting from the social and economic capital of ‘wealthy and powerful families’ here.

This is essentially what has happened to secondary schools in East Herts. There’s multiple outstanding schools which have been successful now for many years/generations of families.

Same in south Herts. The catchment area for distance only has shrunk to a few hundred metres for one of the most sought-after state schools. Property prices certainly reflect that. There's also a well respected, partially selective comprehensive in my town and a typical family house is around £1.3 million for that reason.

Go four miles down the road and there's a non-selective, under-performing school that's the one no one wants their kids to go to (their words, not mine). Its catchment area is predominantly social housing.

And I know of many families with kids in state schools who pay for one on one tutoring on top, thus increasing their advantage. Yes, there's state provision but it does nothing for inequality, if anything, it also perpetuates it. But I guess that doesn't fit the anti private school agenda.

Not just me. The message they get from their teachers is that education is something you take out into the world to benefit society. It's not all about 'me, me, me'. Schools have charity committees run by pupils and everyone is encouraged to get involved- much like state school I imagine.

I’m glad some parents send their kids to private school. It’s none of my business how they spend their money (that many of them have probably worked v hard to earn) and it takes pressure off state schools.

Even if private school parents entered the state sector the standards wouldn’t go up there’s such a chippy attitude in the UK it would be a race to the bottom. In the private sector things like standing up when a master enters the room singing from the same hymn sheet regarding uniform behaviour attitude is ubiquitous and a can do attitude is the default I don’t see this in the state sector atall. For those jumping on me saying oh these things don’t matter yes the do you start from the bottom up it’s not being spoon fed it’s being positive creating an environment where things get done properly not scrabbling about

I googled that and it looks like the Alleyn school in London? Nearby comprehensive is rated OFSTED good? So your child is attending a good school vs some other posters who may not have that as an alternative.

I think, perhaps, my original point has been misinterpreted. My point is that the aim of education is a population that can spell and add up. From these threads you would think that the aim of education is an equal society.

My point was that if your child isn't learning anything in the state school because they're being bullied/ can't cope with the large classes/ don't get enough SEN help, or whatever, you send them to private, if you can scrape the money together, because it's important for your child to get an education. Yes, if private wasn't an option more children might come out equally incompetent, but is that really the aim?

Yes I agree with you op

the lack of awareness is astounding not just on mn but often in the school playgrounds

i know from experience and I make sure my ds is aware of this privilege unfortunately quite a few he attends school with are not they are entitled

private school culture is bizarre to me I guess being from a working class background I notice it as the vast majority are from middle and upper middle class backgrounds. It’s made me aware how much class is still entrenched in our society

Charter School North Dulwich - state comprehensive- is indeed a very coveted school in London with a very expensive catchment. That is the comprehensive near Alleyns?

"My kids are at private school and I'm at peace that this counts against them for university offers as they've had certain advantages. But doesn't count so much against offers for our local top-performing not a grammar but really a grammar."

You understand that children from state schools don't get automatic contextual offers?

The two universities my son wants to attend make contextual offers for kids who are first generation in their family to go to university, care leavers, and for particular postcodes.

Having gone to a socially challenging school which can't recruit or retain STEM teachers, and having inadequate access to a properly equipped science lab because the school is so ridiculously overcrowded that kids are having to do their lessons in marquees in the car park - not going to stop universities from making that student an offer of AAA for their most popular stem courses.

"But doesn't count so much against offers for our local top-performing not a grammar but really a grammar."

Those kids at that 'top performing not a grammar but really a grammar" are still getting less than half the spend on their schooling than your child gets, so....

By the way when you say 'not a grammar but really a grammar' - it's not an academically selective school is it? So it's not a grammar.

"Charter School North Dulwich - state comprehensive- is indeed a very coveted school in London with a very expensive catchment. That is the comprehensive near Alleyns?"

The budget per head for Charter is approximately 7.5K per year. The budget per head for the nearest private school - Alleyns - is £7650 per term.

Just shy of 30% of children at Charter are on free school meals.

So even the best comprehensives in wealthier areas have a third to a half of the spend per head of private schools in the same areas, and exponentially more disadvantaged pupils.

And state schools in these areas really struggle with recruitment, because they're having to compete with fee paying schools with absolutely palatial facilities and small classes.

https://www.charternorthdulwich.org.uk/key-information/pupil-premium

It is 21 per cent pupil premium for 2022-2023 and £955 per eligible pupil plus 27k as a recovery premium.

Plus state schools can get capex grants. Private schools don’t spend all the fees they receive from parents on teaching. You just need to look at the accounts. Lots is wasted on nice to haves. They don’t even need all those teachers and minibuses.

State schools with good management know how to get extra funding for the right things. It is a really hard juggling act. However, it has not been an issue in the state schools my children have attended. PTA and parents give voluntary contributions too. Issues are more to do with too much pressure on teachers. For many, it isn’t even about pay. But having to turn kids into something they are not.

I bet Charter is exactly the kind of school that knows how to maximise government funding and knows how to tap its remaining rich parent body.

"I bet Charter is exactly the kind of school that knows how to maximise government funding and knows how to tap its remaining rich parent body."

That's a bit of a reach 😂

Have you got kids at Alleyns? 😂

"But having to turn kids into something they are not."

Please - say more.

No, I don’t @izimbra. My DC went to a church school and then grammar, I am worse that the private school parents! Tapping myself on the back for saving tons of money and for now, we are still getting the Oxbridge places too. All good here in our world.
I am now wondering whether we should take the student loan for the DC and stick it in a high interest earning account and invest it and then hand to the DC to buy a house. What do you think?