What standard of living do you think should be the minimum everyone can afford?

[MondayAgainnn]

What do you think the absolute basic minimum should be?

I think everybody should be able to afford:

Decent food
Safe housing
Any extra medical things needed, including dentistry
Internet package as it is completely necessary nowadays
Enough clothes to stay warm, dry, appropriate trainers for exercising etc
Enough for some discretionary spending - obviously this is harder to quantify, but things like Netflix, a coffee, cinema tickets I feel should be a normal attainable part of life for everyone
Enough to save a bit

Whether it is through work or through benefits I feel everyone in society should be able to have a lifestyle that is dignified, basically comfortable and with room for treats. Not just subsistence level.

What do you think the minimum should be?

Wow - so because I'm disabled and can't work, that means I don't deserve enough to survive on? I'd fucking LOVE to be working. But hey, I'm on benefits so I just don't matter, I guess.

But why advertise it as a job, there clearly won't be enough graffiti to keep multiple people in a full time role. What happens when the contract ends? Do they just go back to sitting at home getting their money for nothing?
A certain type of benefits claimant has virtually made a career out of doing nothing....they might be inspired to get an actual job if they realise sitting on their arse is no longer an option and some form of work will be expected to receive their benefits.

Netflix, coffee out, cinema, holidays are luxuries. There are plenty of streaming sites, YouTube etc to watch. I think dentistry should be free/ heavily subsidized as well as provide at least an annual optician check.

Someone mentioned Finland as a country of higher taxation and someone else then said you can't compare oranges and pairs. I think the real point is that how we view tax is culturally/politically driven. Therefore it can, and does, change. Once you accept that, the conversation changes.

The real question is what is tax for? Most people recognise that its to fund things like schools, roads, the NHS etc. Most people don't recognise that ever single one of us - including the billionaire CEOs - benefit from it. It's not a simple cost-benefit analysis on an individual scale.

The idea that some people pay in more than they take out is a fallacy. Those who pay for private education and health care for example are still benefitting from the universal services facilitated by those taxes. Quite often the service personnel they employ for their privately funded services were educated by the state and kept healthy by the NHS. Luxury items can't be transported without the taxes funding the roads. Most people would be better off paying more tax if the extra money meant better public services.

The other consideration is that if you keep people too poor, despite working hard, eventually you'll also quite likely end up with civil unrest. People have a nasty habit of doing that when they perceive they have nothing left to lose. In a world where social media is exposing just how well some people are living (even if fake ) and media regularly reports on the huge profits of companies that somehow manage to avoid paying tax, potential civil unrest is closer than many people would like to believe.

I pay HRT. I'm actually happy to. I see the good it does even when I don't personally benefit. There are lots of very rich donors who support parties with redistribution of wealth policies. It's not true at all to say that if we make life more comfortable for everyone the rich will begrudge paying tax. Only some will, and that says more about their personal perspective than it does economics. The key is balance.

"Benefits should definitely not include money for netflix and holidays ffs, if those children of welfare parents go without they need to have a serious conversation with their parents later in life as to why they did so little to provide for them!"

Just wow.

Yeah, if we give the lazy scroungers too much then we risk them deliberately making themselves disabled 🙄

Pears not pairs

I’m really torn on these questions if I’m going to be completely honest.

On one hand everyone should have access to a basic standard of living plus extras. Holidays, Netflix etc are extras on top of basic living. It makes me sad thinking about children that might have never seen the countryside or a zoo for example.

However the logical side of me then states that to allow this then benefits have to rise and where does that money come from. Will it encourage some people not to work? Not going to lie if I could afford a holiday and little luxuries like I do now i would be tempted not to work, I hate my job but I do it to allow myself a treat every so often.

No one should bring children into the world without working out how they are going to pay and support them. Including if circumstances change.

A good friend has a child with significant physical and cognitive disabilities. She needs 24 hour care, will never live independently. In the space of 3 years my friend went from being married, having a successful career and a nice home in a nice area to being a single parent (dad decided he couldn’t cope and left), in an adapted council house, unable to work because there’s is no childcare that can accommodate her daughters need and she has multiple appointments for her daughter that no employer would accommodate. She will have a place in a special school next year, but less than standard school hours, so still unable to work.

How could she possibly have predicted that and planned accordingly?

It’s very easy from the comfort of your home to judge how people live their lives, much less easy when life hands you a curve ball. The benefits system needs to be agile enough to give meaningful support to those who need it. The whole furlough scheme is evidence that it’s not fit for purpose, if it was there would have been no need to effectively change the benefits system over lockdown.

This. I'd love to know how much of the "benefit bill" ends up in the pockets of private landlords
If it us so lucrative, why are so many selling? Because there isn't much profit to me made for all those who have pay income tax on the rental which for many will be up to 40% or 50%.

And there's a related question about self insurance versus state provision.

E.g there's a really sensible argument that sickness insurance should be compulsory, and particularly if someone has children

Aside from the ethical reasons, it would cost a fortune. Highly unemployable, work resistant people would typically cost more to train, supervise, monitor, report back on, sanction, administer hardship funds to while sanctioned (we can't let them starve), deal with their appeals, than it would ever be worth. Its far cheaper to leave certain people alone than it is to press gang them into jobs that they will perform poorly, creating more work and costs in the process.

So according to some people on here, you should only be allowed a holiday or Netflix etc if you work? And of course earn enough to have that money spare after extortionate rent/ fuel bills?

How DARE a disabled person, a single parent, someone who has not managed to get a job yet etc etc think that they should have anything over a SERF's existence?!

For goodness sake this is 2023 not 1823.

Things are so expensive now I want a proper minimum wage. I also want to see people supported into work which means employers investing in people more

I agre with most of your list

Safe housing
Any extra medical things needed, including dentistry and prescriptions (feeling burnt after forking out for 3 things this month during an allergic reaction)
Internet package as it is completely necessary nowadays and something basic to access it on
Enough clothes to stay warm, dry, appropriate trainers for exercising etc
Enough for some discretionary spending
Enough to save a bit

I disagree on discretionary. We had no TV streaming until lockdown and now we have 3 but barely use them. Normal TV is absolutely fine, I only keep it as my elderly father dips into it and it's an affordable luxury as we only holiday in a tent in the uk, don't get take aways or eat out so that's our spending. I think enough discretionary to do something every month and if that's your Netflix fine, if someone wants a take away or cinema trip it's important to have something to keep up going or to cut out to field an emergency bill. If people don't have leeway for emergencies and nowhere to cut back to cover that feels to me like a big risk to society so min wage should have some leeway.

Work Houses?

Some people are claiming 1k or more a month rent though - no.way is there no profit in that for landlords!

The maximum amount in my area for a 2 bed is way more than we pay mortgage

Small landlords who haven't put their properties in a company are selling.

I think the issue is that people spend money differently. So even if the budget should cover those including a holiday etc it doesn’t mean individually it would.

me and my best friend for example get basically the same amount of money a month ( she gets 150,00 a more ) we have the same amount of children.

I can afford a lot more holidays and days out than she can.

If it us so lucrative, why are so many selling? Because there isn't much profit to me made for all those who have pay income tax on the rental which for many will be up to 40% or 50%.

Its pretty lucrative if you include appreciation on the property in question, it’s not just the rent payment it’s effectively someone else paying the landlords mortgage while the landlord has an appreciating asset to sell when the time comes.

Since when did children need Netflix????
Aren’t there enough channels on TV to satisfy?

Interesting how 'the basics' have changed over the years.

The point is that money is earned by working. People on benefits and not working are just expecting someone else to work so they don't have to.

Netflix is cheaper than a TV license.

Adequate amount/choice of quality food
Heating for the coldest months of the year
Secure housing
Light/electric for daily needs
Access to transport (if needed)
Clothing/shoes (although fewer items than we all seem to expect these days, we all need to consume less)
One UK break each year
Enough for small luxuries a few times a year (I think we should think of this as a our parents and GPs did, again to control consumption)

yes, they are

CeciliaMars · Today 16:46
For me this is more than the basics - basics literally mean what you need to survive surely. Discretionary spending such as netflix, cinema, coffees out, plus being able to save, are luxuries surely?