To think people have inflated view of our healthcare system?

[Runaway0]

I've had treatment abroad twice and I wouldn't hesitate to get elective treatment abroad again this was the EU. The staff spoke perfect English there was an ICU in the hospital. I was offered pre op sedation because i was anxious ,I had my own private room , I was nursed with one other patient and there was 2 nurses on shift so 1:1 ratio my pain was perfectly managed. In comparison over here ive been expected to have gynaecological procedures with no pain relief. I had great protein filled meals with fish plenty of vegetables great for healing. (High carb slop offered here.)

I had dressings changed , post op care wirh docfor and I stayed 4 weeks to ensure everything was healing well. I keep hearing people say they would never get treatment abroad you will die etc they treat the UK as some holy grail of healthcare. People who go abroad are stupid etc.I have been left in pain multiple times in our health care system. My DD when she fell ill in Singapore had a team of doctors waiting for her at the hospital.
Preparing to be flamed but AIBU to think our healthcare system isn't that great? Many people haven't actually experienced care abroad so assume ours must naturally be the best?

You and others are saying the NHS is wasteful and poorly managed etc but where is your evidence for this?

Btw anecdotal doesn't count.

When efficiency is compared to other health systems, the NHS does well, does more for less... but its on outcomes that it fails and thats down to lower staff numbers and less equipment.

But why has the UK allowed the NHS to fail?

Put simply, those in power don't use it, they see it as one of the last 1940s and 50s "socialist constructs" and want it gone, they cannot of course voice this publicly so dismantle the NHS bit by bit, as they also do with education.

what i really don't get is why Labour are not using this to put a clear divide between them and the Tories, they appear to be letting the Tory party control the narrative or maybe they want it gone too?

Or, conversly, if it was efficient and successful why is it failing?

The 1940s is a widely different era for healthcare there wasn't many effective treatments for life limiting conditions. People died a lot quicker, smaller population less advanced age. It's a victim of its own success. If we want a brilliant healthcare system we will have to pay more in taxes and copay. It's going two tier already I rarely see the NHS anymore and I'm assuming a lot of people with disposable income are the same. We need to pay staff competitive wages in line with other Western countries.

A&E I saw a queue of elderly people on trolleys in corridors horrific to see and something I thought I would not see in 2023. Because its free they should be grateful ?

It isn't failing but the government are gaslighting people into thinking it is as they want people to go private. There have always been waiting lists and people have always moaned about the food (preferring to send out for McDonald's or kfc).
Just remember to read the small print of your insurance policy - they are beginning to refuse expensive treatments (including cancer) and not renew if you have claimed.
This government wants you to transfer to private as they are incapable of running anything.
God help you if you are poor, disabled, old or chronically sick

You don't think it's failing when people are being made to sit for 30 hrs in A&E waiting to be seen? Or not getting tested for cancer? Or waiting 3 years for a hip replacement so they have zero quality of life in the meantime? Or can't gt a nurse to look after their child for 20 mins so they can eat for the first time in two days? Or can't get MH support? Or can't see a GP for love or money? Or can't get an ambulance for their gran who has been lying on a pub floor for 7 hours?

This isn't the goverment. This is real people sharing their experiences. You are gaslighting people into thinking they somehow have it wrong and they ought to put up with this because the NHS is doing just fine and people are just making a mountain out of a molehill and should just be grateful for the wonderful NHS.

Btw, I don't want private healthcare. I want an actual NHS that works and treats people as they should be treated. That's not going to happen by holding your ears and just repeating "everything is fine. everything is great."when people are complaining.

I think some people have a very unrealistic view on what healthcare looks like for people in other countries. Yes, if you are a high earner or are lucky enough to have a decent healthcare package with a job then you have nothing to worry about but if you are much poorer, life isn’t so rosey.
I used to work for the NHS in the maternity ward. We had obstetricians over from the states and I remember them saying that the rates of c-sections we’re so much higher than the U.K. and that was often down to getting as much out of the insurance companies as they could.
My gastroenterologist also told me the reason people are out under GA’s during colonoscopies in the USA is also down to money and the incidents of bowel perforation during colonoscopies is much higher in the US than over here in the U.K. where they tend to opt mainly for sedation.
I have a chronic health condition and am on several FB support groups, it saddens me just how many people over there are suffering and can not get hold of regular medication or standard procedures because their health insurance will not cover it and they don’t earn enough to get higher insurance. As an average earner myself this scares me shitless, I just hope our government never follows the US. With all of these things if you are health and earn well then life is a dream.
We can’t all be high earners for a myriad of reasons and I certainly don’t want to be like the unfortunate people in the US queuing for days at shopping malls just to get free or cheap treatment for everyday issues like hernias.

@Runaway0 why do you keep saying the NHS is free? It is not free. We are paying for it. The myth that it is free is what leads to people accepting poor service. It is free at the point of need, but it is not free. There is a very very big difference.

There's many other countries who don't follow the US system. It's not the US vs NHS no other countries copy the nhs system if it was that amazing they would?

It's certainly not free we paid 60k in taxes last year and services seem to be getting worse.

The only people I see saying "everything is fine, everything is great" is the government.

@fiftiesmum mum thinks things are just grand and it's all government propaganda:

"It isn't failing but the government are gaslighting people into thinking it is as they want people to go private."

Completely agree!

The % element above covers your per capita observation and the UKs GDP per capita (therefore spend in £/$ rather than %) is either greater or comparable to the other countries mentioned. So your observation whilst useful for comparing UK to say India or Switzerland doesnt make a big difference to UK v Germany, Italy etc.

I think the point about privatise it is irrelevant. My personal view is that it's too big to manage properly and needs to broken down into smaller chunks to be more effective. They could all be state owned but better managed. Either way it's too big at the moment.

Today there is a good thread today by a FT journalist on how NHS is acutely short of workers.

“1 in 7* UK-trained doctors are practising overseas. No other developed country is like this, which immediately tells you there’s a problem.”

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1651901173216038913?s=61&t=JdkndO417wUfB5xJiVIJww

It’s a complete lie NHS isn’t underfunded. I quote again what I wrote earlier.

“Health spending per person, adjusted for demographic change, grew at 2% a year under the Conservatives from 1979 to 1997; at 5.7% a year under Labour from 1997 to 2010; at -0.07% from 2010 to 2015; and at -0.03% from 2015 to 2021. In other words, even Margaret Thatcher, who declared there’s no such thing as society, increased NHS funding at a higher rate than the Conservatives in the 2010s. David Cameron declared he wanted to create a “big society”, and he and George Osborne reduced NHS funding per person. Cameron also said that there would be no more top-down reorganisation of the NHS and then, with his health secretary Andrew Lansley, did exactly that. It marked what Chris Ham, former head of the King’s Fund, described as the political failure that led to the decline of the NHS.
Other European countries have taken a different approach. If the UK had increased its healthcare expenditure from 2010 to 2019 as much as France did, we would have increased our current spend by 21%, and by 39% if we had matched Germany. The NHS needs more money. It would help in filling the 150,000 vacant full-time posts. Paying doctors and nurses appropriately would help. But we do need reform as well.”

And believe me the only model Tories would introduce is private for profit healthcare model.

Also in 2010 a study by Commonwealth Fund ranked NHS no 1 overall compared to many other similar countries. Tories came in, spending plummeted and now the NHS is struggling.

err if we are to have a debate, then it might be a good idea not to embellish what i said?

I said nhs is efficient but poor outcomes NOT it is successful did i?

What is missing here is that the UK has not enough people who want to work in healthcare, we have always had to import medics, from the 50s onwards, its even more of crisis now with not enough school leavers with the correct A levels to go into health and social care hit by huge staff shortages.

However, maybe ask why the Govt refuses to do anything about Social Care? even Boris's plan has be ditched but that plan, weak as it was, had no extra money for wages.

Before reform can take place, we need to get back to an NHS that we had in 2019 or we will just make matters far worse.

@Fererr Yes in one!

We don't spend per capita what is required and Brexit has cut us off from many EU workers happy to work in the NHS and Social Care.

It sounds like the person needs to access an IAPT talking therapies service as this exactly what they are there for. They aren't always run by NHS trusts in all areas though, some are run by not for profit or private companies. The GP will know.

It sounds like the person needs to access an IAPT talking therapies service as this exactly what they are there for. They aren't always run by NHS trusts in all areas though, some are run by not for profit or private companies. The GP will know.

IAPT doesn’t exist in Scotland, where I’m based.

Agree with most of what you've been saying on this thread, don't agree that we don't have enough people who want to work in healthcare though. What we don't have is enough training places. Medicine particularly, is an extremely difficult university course to get onto, many thousands of young people, who I'm sure many would have made excellent doctors, just don't get a place. I know expanding numbers then puts pressure on hospital rotations, but I'm sure that problem isn't insurmountable.

I think successive governments have just looked at the numbers and decided its cheaper to import medics that train them ourselves.

Agreed.
There are far more young people who could be great doctors who never get near a place.
At the other end to retain doctors and not lose them to other countries we need to address the huge pay erosion. Another poster has mentioned this is universal, but public sector stats show it is far far more in the public rather than private sector. And consultants have had the worst- heading for 45% pay erosion this year. If the country wants to retain fully qualified doctors and not loose them to going abroad where they are paid significantly better than UK, this needs addressing but is a worthwhile intervention. Junior doctors pay erosion needs addressing as well as more training positions or else they will of course go abroad rather than hang here on low pay plus unable to get onto a training run.

The future looks pretty bleak for anyone wanting medical care ( so that’s everyone) if this isn’t addressed but the government seem uninterested.

After having spent the last two months desperately trying to get any help medically and mentally for a dear friend I am still in shock and dis belief at how horrendous and dangerous our healthcare system actually can be.

I can totally see why the suicide rate in this country is so high when it takes days to get any type of response from a doctor or a 24/7 mental health crisis network.

Absolutely shocking

DH's post cancer op treatment and support has been fantastic - really.
The whole team that support him - surgeon, dietician, SLT, physio, psychologist, nutritionist, ENT - have been really fab. They've responded quickly to any glitches in his recovery. They are available by zoom or phone pretty much anytime he's needed them and offer support and advice by email.
Honestly, I have nothing but praise for the NHS as we've experienced it.