Reasonable adjustments

[Melmimi28]

ill probably get roasted for this … however I’m genuinely interested in thoughts rather than creating a huge divide/debate.
After reading the whole dog on bus /allergy thread. What are actually considered reasonable adjustments for people with actual disabilities and where it draws the line in detrimental affects to others.
I ask in relation to a particular experience of going to Musical , we were seated not far from a group of severely disabled guests, I obviously completely agree they are entitled as anyone to visit and enjoy said musical . However throughout the show these guests used multiple rattles/shaking devices almost continuously as a comfort aid . Made loud verbal sounds (likely uncontrollable) I appreciate these things they are not able to control/choose. However in the context of watching a performance which is sound/music based and these extra sounds create a significant distraction and loss of enjoyment…. (For me I’d have preferred to have not gone I really could not concentrate due to distractions) at what point does making accommodation for disability override others enjoyment being detrimented .
I felt awful for feeling this way… but I attended a musical that could not be enjoyed due to significant shaking of loud rattled and vocal noises.

It’s badly organized OP. The vocal noises are fine but the sound producing equipment is absolutely not. I should have complained during the break and asked them to move you.
It would be preferable for this group to choose a relaxed performance if there was any, not all venues did them. However a relaxed performance means that people can make vocal noises, go around a bit and not all lights are switched off but it doesn’t mean chaos and definitely not using shakers.

Sorry I meant you should have complained during the break

A good apology is that supermarkets now do quiet hours.

These are designed for anyone who needs to attend the supermarket when it's quiet and don't want to use the alternative home delivery service.

I love this service because not all disabled people (or even NT people) who struggle with loud environments wants to stay home.

It's a reasonable adjustment.

What wouldn't be reasonable is a load of service users and caters turning up with rattles etc to entertain them and trying to play some kind of disability top trump.

This is akin to attending a theatre and creating noise.

The issue - IMO - is that as a society we have become very entitled and self absorbed in our own needs we forget how that impacts on others.

Obviously in some ways that has been beneficial.

But in many it actually becomes detrimental. We've forgotten as a society how to police ourselves in public. How to ensure what we do doesn't impact on the enjoyment of others and tend to think our own needs trump those of others.

This has gone along with expectations of behaviour being lowered. (One example I can think of is an adult telling me teens couldn't sit for half an hour poolside in silence at a swim gala. I did ask how they thought these teens copes with school day in and day out!)

If you don't like dogs - don't go to a dog friendly cafe.

If you don't like noise - don't go somewhere noisy.

If you can't be quiet and sit still - don't go somewhere that requires you to do.

Reasonable adjustments are necessary to allow those with disabilities to be included in society.

They aren't intended to be incorrectly quoted as a reason to behave as you want in public at the detriment to others enjoyment of that public space.

I have had this at the cinema and it did spoil my enjoyment. Of course I didn't complain as I didn't want to look like a knob.

Cinema is easier to fix, as multiple showings. maybe make the first showing a few days a week a relaxed one (including mothers with crying babies)

Sadly even when cinemas do have relaxed/autism friendly/ mother and baby showings people still go to the standard showings because its "their right" etc. I've had a Saturday night 18 rated film ruined by a mother and baby. The baby screamed constantly. When people complained she shouted that she was allowed to be there and told everyone to fuck off. So again it's people having no consideration and just shouting about their RIGHTS.

Why the first showing a few days a week?

Then it’s up to the staff to remove people. They need to understand that they either have to follow the rules and book the correct session that meets their needs, or risk being removed for being disruptive.

They do do accessible showings but just nowhere near enough of them. I have disabled DC and we do everything other children do but with a firm boundary of not hindering everyone else's experiences.

They they go to the media and get horrendous abuse

But this is where people/ companies get accused of being ablist and discriminatory etc.
I remember a news report about a woman claiming she was thrown out of the cinema for breastfeeding. She was ranting about how discriminatory it was and she was entitled to breastfeed etc etc. Anyway turns out she was asked to leave due to the fact her baby didn't stop screaming for the first 20 mins of the film. Nothing to do with breastfeeding. Imagine a cinema trying to throw out a person with autism because they made noise etc? They'd be piled on. So I'm not sure what the solution is. Just try and bring back consideration for others rather than just rights.

This is why I wonder if clear terms an conditions would help so it's less of an individual decision for the staff.

@Choconut it pisses people off but they don't ask for all the tall people to go to a special tall person event because they're blocking the view of people

This is the kind of reason I don't go to cinemas anymore. I know I can watch at home without having to worry about the movie being spoiled, or missing parts due to noise. Things go to streaming so fast now. Most of the time it's fine but you just never know.

As previously explained, having a tall person sit in front of you doesn't impact most people's experience in the same way that a group of people making noise over a performance does. Anyone with children has had to put up with a taller person sitting in front of their kids and there is almost always a way to sit at an angle etc that largely mitigates the issue. It's almost impossible to mitigate against unwanted noise in the same way.

I do take exception to the implication that everyone is desperate to segregate disabled people. This absolutely isn't the case and I think it's useful to remember that most disabled people wouldn't make noise during a theatre performance and a significant group of disabled people really really struggle with others making noise near them during a show. It is also important to remember that people without a disability can go on to develop Alzheimers which can cause them to make noise and thus be better suited to attending a relaxed showing and of course parents with young children and babies could also attend these performances.

I guess my point is that this is fundamentally about balancing everyone's wants and needs and it isn't as simple as saying it's the disabled Vs everyone else. It makes sense to separate out groups with competing needs where we can so we can best meet everybody's needs and make the theatre as accessible as possible for the most people. A form of inclusion that prevents others from attending theatre isn't real inclusion.

Just try and bring back consideration for others rather than just rights.

We need to bring back people remembering alongside rights come responsibilities.

I think (hope!) it'll happen.

Unless the baby was 18, surely they shouldn’t have been allowed in in the first place?! 😀

I agree with you OP. Reasonable adjustments that are a minor inconvenience to others are fine, but they shouldn’t fundamentally spoil other people’s enjoyment.

@1DoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor

The first one each day is usually pretty empty bar students and unemployed (I often attend that one)

So a reasonable compromise to make that one more inclusive as won't lose much revenue for cinema as making the Saturday night 8pn showing inclusive.

Babies in arms don't count in the ratings apparently. Hence why you can have mother and baby showings for 18+ films.

It's only inclusive if you can go at that particular time, restricting the times and number of inclusive viewings can and often does lead to exclusion.

inclusive viewings should be at different times every day. So people who require them have access to them on a day to day basis not just a few times a week at specific times.

I agree with you about varying the timing of relaxed viewings but the total number offered should depend on the demand. Supply and demand is a well established business principle.

This is where it then becomes too cost ineffective and cost is very much a valid consideration in what constitutes reasonable.

Oh, and give over with the inclusive tag. Relaxed viewings exclude as much as they include.

I would say shakers would take it outside of reasonable adjustments, but the theatre probably didn't know they were going to do that and the group organisers were probably tone deaf about how much impact it would have.

An email to the theatre would be proportionate I think. How many complaints they get is data they can use to tweak things in future. They may update their guidelines, or add in a relaxed performance next time. If everyone politely avoids saying anything and just avoids going back, theatre revenue goes down and no one wins.

Unfortunately in life you can't have everything available all the time when you want it. It would be great if they could have the type of viewing that would suit everyone throughout the day. But that's just not feasible. I agree there should be more choice than say just one a week at 9am. But cinemas for example can't have the same film showing in 4 different screens for 4 different types of showing. Theatres can only have 1 type of showing available at day 7pm on a Saturday night. Sometimes you need to just have a look and find the best showing available for you and go to that if you can, and if you can't, then you miss out. Both disabled and non disabled people sometimes have to miss out on things for many reasons.

*PaperSheet · Today 12:05
1DoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor · Today 10:42

It's only inclusive if you can go at that particular time, restricting the times and number of inclusive viewings can and often does lead to exclusion.

inclusive viewings should be at different times every day. So people who require them have access to them on a day to day basis not just a few times a week at specific times.
Show quote history
Unfortunately in life you can't have everything available all the time when you want it. It would be great if they could have the type of viewing that would suit everyone throughout the day. But that's just not feasible. I agree there should be more choice than say just one a week at 9am. But cinemas for example can't have the same film showing in 4 different screens for 4 different types of showing. Theatres can only have 1 type of showing available at day 7pm on a Saturday night. Sometimes you need to just have a look and find the best showing available for you and go to that if you can, and if you can't, then you miss out. Both disabled and non disabled people sometimes have to miss out on things for many reasons.*

I agree with the above. relaxed performances lose money. They are only reasonable adjustments if they ar deemed affordable. E.g. loss of revenue for one relaxed performance out of 24 per month is likely to be considered tolerable and therefore the adjustment is reasonable. 4 out of 24 would not.