100k+ salary, is it worth it?

[Goingtogetslated]

For the record…Not trying to be insensitive…

partner and I both earn approx 150k each. Working long and unpredictable hours with high levels of stress and responsibility.

Yet here we are living in a 3 bed terrace in the east end of london, a basic car, neither of us into high end expenses/dining out/clothes. We used to holiday a lot pre children, I guess would classify as our major expenditure in the past.

But is it actually worth it? A decent 4/5 bed house (with kerb appeal I admit) in the commuter belt seems to be coming in at 1.5 million minimum. Add the commuting costs/ extended nursery hours, paid help required theres barely anything left - relatively speaking.

Would we not be better off sacking it all in, moving to the countryside and earning enough to pay the bills?

We appear to be stuck in this middle ground where we earn too much to have any allowances from the state, contribute a lot to the government yet not enough for any real benefits in lifestyle

But I'm not sure what exactly you think anyone is meant to do about it? There's way more demand than supply now. It is what it is. It hasn't been reasonable to expect to have a fancy lifestyle and a big house in Zone 2 for at least 15-20 years now without being extremely, extremely wealthy, so why has it come as such a surprise to OP? Thinking you deserve something that's inaccessible to almost everyone else is the definition of entitlement.

It isn't irrelevant at all that people in those other cities accept living in flats. It's what should be expected here, except people keep being surprised that they can't buy a mansion in Highgate anymore on a good, but not spectacular, household income. An income of £300,000 in 2000 would be more like £500,000 today in terms of what it gets you. There's also a couple of million more people to compete for housing with.

I'm not saying people shouldn't comment, I'm asking what the point of the OP's woe is me attitude is. It's pretty offensive and goady to people who are actually struggling to describe herself as the squeezed middle.

I'm not being aggressive. You're the one swearing at me and having a tantrum like a toddler because I don't agree with you.

So everything you buy with your £300,000 income is a “need”? How exactly do you think other people live?

Yes, because NYC was built upwards and not outwards, which is what we should have done here! It simply isn't realistic for most people to live in houses in a city as populated as London. The weird obsession with houses has played a large part in the housing crisis being as bad as it is.

You really, really don't seem to get the point. OP is entitled to want a house. She's not being reasonable to expect to have a nice 4-bed terrace AND live in a trendy part of Zone 2 AND have loads of disposable income, and call herself the 'squeezed middle' because she can't have all that. She could, like my friends, buy a perfectly nice house in a perfectly nice part of Zone 4/5, a short train ride from central and all London has to offer (museums, galleries, culture, job options), and have loads of money left for really nice holidays, but apparently to you, that's slumming it.

She can have a perfectly nice 4 bed period house in Zone 2. Just not the five bedroom mansion “with kerb appeal” she wants, without sacrificing some of her disposable income. To be clear, she can afford the 5 bedroom mansion right now, on her current income, she just doesn’t want to spend what it costs to buy it.

OP, if you buy an expensive house, it will be expensive and you won’t have much money left for holidays. Or you can buy a less expensive house, and have more money to spend on fun stuff. This isn’t a “squeezed middle” thing, it’s a “basic household economics” thing. Is it annoying that London housing is expensive, yes it is, but that is not exactly new, and not showing any sign of changing.

You only live once. It sounds like you are properly sucked in to the rat race. Agree it's ridiculous that you can't afford what you want on your salary. And rubbish. Time for a massive life change? Simplify your life, get out of London and work on being happier as a family.

But OP isn't spending $3m. She's mentioned £1.5m, which is $1.85ish million. That would get you a nice two maybe three-bed in the nicer bits of Manhattan or Brooklyn, or a family home with a tiny garden somewhere way out into Queens, like Flushing.

This is being presented as a uniquely London issue when it's just a big, capital city issue. I have friends in all kinds of places from NYC to Amsterdam to Madrid, and they all, even if they make very good money, live in two or three bed flats with no garden.

It just isn't realistic in 2023 to expect to live close to the city centre in a large, posh house, unless you have serious inherited wealth or are a multi millionaire.

Op can afford a nice detached house somewhere like Beckenham. Which has lots of fast and cheap (oyster zone) 20 minute train connections into London. And good schools in the form of leafy comps (eg Park Langley). Lots of tennis and golf clubs and still a London village vibe. If you can’t afford Highgate village or Hampstead you have to pick the slightly further out options… every generations keeps changing and being pushed slightly further out.
Even Manchester and Bristol and Brighton have become really expensive in the last 10-15 years. You just have to observe where everyone with good jobs and similar values is moving and join the bandwagon. Every generation who hasn’t inherited but is driven has had to do it in one shape or form.

You are aggressive, you called me spoilt and entitled without knowing the remotest thing about me and seem very angry that people question the status quo.

I didn’t swear at you that’s just a lie, I just swore about Finchley which isn’t my favourite place.

I’ve no idea why you think I care whether you agree with me or not. I’m not particularly interested in your opinion tbh.

It’s very odd that you can’t understand that OP may have moved to London from the north or another country where 300k buys you much more than it does in London, thus her expectations for her family may be based on different variables. Knowing hypothetically the state of London property before moving isn’t the same as living it.

All this squawking about ‘offensive, ‘goady’, ‘entitlement’ comes across very prickly and resentful.

We bought a 2 bed flat in Brixton, on Coldharbour Laneso not exactly a desirable area, in 2002 for £170k. 3 bed houses were about £400k (they are £1.2m now).

If you bought a house for £200k in 2003, it wasn’t in Zone 2. Which is what OP is after.

I didn't call you spoiled or entitled. I said the attitude of thinking you have the right to something is entitled, because it is. That's literally what it means.

It's funny that loads and loads of people are living perfectly happy lives in London on far, far less money than the OP. They aren't feeling hard done by because they can't have absolutely every last thing they think they deserve. They're enjoying the museums, the parks, everything London has to offer, and making the most of being here.

It's funny you think I'm prickly and resentful, because that's exactly how the OP comes across. I feel quite sorry for her, actually, because I enjoy my life much more than she seems to, despite being on under a quarter of her household income. I love living in London and taking advantage of all it has to offer, and I feel very fortunate I was able to buy here. I had a lovely day yesterday, met a friend for lunch in Belgravia, wandered round the shops, had a coffee at a posh place where we spotted a celeb. I often go to all sorts of interesting events, gigs, shows, that cost very little. I love having access to multiple international airports and the Eurostar, so I can go anywhere in the world easily. I'm well aware I could have bought a house with a garden in Hull, but I don't want to live in Hull. I understand that London is enormously expensive for property and you need to compromise.

I think OP just wanted a vent about how frustrating it is to earn so much and not be able to have the fancy lifestyle she wants. Well, something has to give.

It was actually under 200k. My sister bought a house in Clapham in 2001 for 167k and sold it last year for 1.2.

Checking Coldharbour Lane sold prices: a 6 bed terrace went for
£112k in 1999, another for £180k in 1999, and a 3 bed semi went for £315k in 2004. So in 2002 they weren’t 400k.

😂

I didn't call you spoiled or entitled. I said the attitude of thinking you have the right to something is entitled, because it is.

No you didn’t you said:

That’s the kind of spoilt entitled attitude I’m referring to in response to my post in which I hadn’t held myself entitled to anything.

It's funny that loads and loads of people are living perfectly happy lives in London on far, far less money than the OP.

I’m one of them. But I can understand OP’s perspective nonetheless.

I can relate. I had a job that paid over 6 figures nearly a decade ago but it was a lot of hours and stressful and gave me anxiety. (I was a lawyer and technically still am but a non-practicing one now.)

Once I experienced a traumatic life event - the loss of my first child who was stillborn- I reassessed everything because it taught me how short life truly is and how we should make sure to live it in a way that makes us happy.

I had only gone into the law because I'd thought there was no way to make a living off of writing and reading/literature which was my first love and what I went to college for before law school. (Creative writing and literary studies.)

I realized I could make SOME money at it and decided I didn't care if I was poor, as long as I was happy. So I crabwalked my way into being a self-published author while slowly extricating myself from the law. I had already left the big law firm where I'd made tons of money and had my own firm which still made good money but was stressful in different ways. I then had a living child and wondered how anyone managed to be both a full time lawyer and a mother! I know some women who do it but that kind of life was NOT for me. Probably because I never liked practicing law in the first place and looked at it as golden handcuffs I definitely wanted to free myself from.

So, I stepped up my publishing efforts, especially marketing the books I wrote and learning about advertising them, and then I was making pretty good money in an area I truly loved. It took me quite a while to wind down my cases or pass them off to other lawyers (many of whom were miserable and stressed themselves and didn't want more of a caseload) but now I'm finally totally free of it and try not to practice law anymore unless it's to help a family member or close friend or the occasional pro Bono/volunteer project for a cause I believe in.

I am so much happier now and wouldn't trade it for the world. At first I was making good money which helped. I have a publishing company with multiple employees and use contractors etc now to help me keep up the volume of books and marketing needed for profit. That can be stressful too, especially the finances/paperwork/taxes/bookkeeping but it's worth it to me because I love creating books. I was born a storyteller and am so glad I can do it for a living.

Things ebb and flow and at times while taking maternity leaves or now that I have a more flexible schedule so I can be more available to my four young children, I haven't made as much money but I don't care. I wouldn't change my time with my children and my stress free lifestyle for any amount of money.

I say listen to your gut and go for it. Make a big change since you aren't currently happy. You only have one short precious life to live. make sure you're happy in it! Best wishes.

@kalinkakaka

$1.5m will buy you a very nice 3 bed condo with amenities in Brooklyn, Jersey or Queens where your commute would be under 45mins to most parts of manhattan.

The uncomfortable truth is that if the OP worked in NYC their income would be a lot higher than the $400k they earn in London. I would estimate their income would be $300k each at a minimum and with an income of $600k, a $2-3m home isn’t unaffordable.

As I said, Uk incomes are low compared to home prices. It’s better for the economy for house prices to adjust down than incomes to rise up.

With respect, @TedMullins you don’t have kids so you don’t know what it’s like to be financially stretched by childcare costs (and all the other costs to raise a child, which are significant).

And you haven’t had your home invaded by hundreds of toys, noise and chaos (from your kids and their friends and the influx of visiting family and friends with their kids).

If you have a big house, as a family everyone has their own space and sanity is better preserved. Having a big garden means you do not have to pack, as if for a weekend away, to cart everyone off to the park for the afternoon. In short life is less stressful and the impact of kids is not so obliterating.

Yes there are plenty who desire the big house/garden for status. But increased square footage is actually very much needed for kids to play and for parents to remain sane.

This misses the point so spectacularly….that a couple on 300k are being suggested to move to Shenfield….don’t get me wrong I’ve lived ALL over London and surrounds, and I hear Shenfield is nice but this is what the OP means….she doesn’t feel it’s worth it if all she can afford is Shenfield!

Re: going part-time too, I would while DC are small @Nogg I do as it makes practical and financial sense for my family right now. DC growing up well supported and emotionally healthy will contribute WAY more to our country long term than a few years if slightly higher taxes from me.

Personally I worked full time from 21 when I graduated till the age of 40 when my DC was born. And I will go back to full time when it makes practical and financial sense to again, in about 3/4 years. Full time + big salary just isn’t ALWAYS the best option.

I’m on around 20k PT and I’m very stressed and work long hours.

How does that work?

You read the next post…

You just dont know how to enjoy your life. My family single household. My DH earns 200k. We drove range rover, we go to holiday in Bali every summer, we go skiing in the winter. We live in cambridge, works in london. Its only 40 mins train journey. Not too bad. And dh only go to office twice a week, he works from home rest of the week. You dont have to stay in london, you can biy somewhere cheaper in surrey or anywhere else

Can't be bothered to read the whole thread. But, mate, what you need to do is sell your house and move somewhere cheaper. Just accept it, you can't afford it. Then you'll have loads of spare income.

Actually I disagree with @Robinni, and agree with @TedMullins.

"But increased square footage is actually very much needed for kids to play and for parents to remain sane." I don't agree with that. The big house is just something that OP wants. And she can probably get it, with a few adjustments.

You don't need a big house nor that much space for kids to be happy. I've always been happy. We've made the choices we made in life. But I'm not the one here complaining about the choices I've made. Dh and I are NOT, high earners, completely average, I worked part time during ds's at primary, but our small house mortgage will be paid off soon, 2 cars bought outright, paying for ds1 living costs at Uni, holiday to Portugal tomorrow. Many of our friends are high earners, eg, skiing in Switzerland - I don't resent their choices or lifestyle.

I can't grasp what OP is complaining about. We all make choices. So live by yours. Or adjust slightly. Surely she just need to make a few adjustments, we all have to prioritise, according to our income: do you want a holiday or a takeaway, buy ds3 a fab 2nd hand bike upgrade or buy those tickets to see a big group:Adele, Billie Eilish for your dd2. We all make choices.

She's chosen 2 high flying careers, (thinks Nicola Walker in The Split) so £2k childcare, £500 commuting, is your choice too.

You can't have it all, but if a big house is what you want, then make it happen.

The 1.5 million house that OP linked, that she doesn't actually really like, is ok, it's executive. It's looks out onto a farm/industrial estate with tatty buildings. But there are others choices for £1.5 million in and around that area - Loughton, the end of the central line.

Mirabai appears 43 times in this thread, I'm not trawling through it all to see how you answered how you work long hours as part time

I’m on around 20k PT and I’m very stressed and work long hours