Is Rishi Sunak utterly thick?

[noblegiraffe]

Today he actually went ahead and announced his plans for everyone studying maths till 18.

And all everyone commenting on this on the news or social media has been saying today is "but this is mad because there aren't enough maths teachers to teach the qualifications we already have".

And teachers including maths teachers, are going on strike again next week because the government refuses to pay them properly. The government also failed to meet its maths teacher trainee recruitment target last year and will again this year.

This announcement just gives everyone the wonderful opportunity to point these governmental failings again and again.

Why the fuck would anyone with any political sense announce a policy that cannot happen and gives everyone the opportunity to point out that it can't happen because the government are shit?

Just why?

Did you catch the bit about the person they asked to be the public face of this was not asked until last Friday and thinks it is stupid? It sure does not make Rishi look very bright.

It doesn't upset me, I physically don't have the time. It takes me from 8 til 6 to provide for all the children in my class, including those with SEND. To provide well for those children though would easily take an extra 30 minutes daily, which is an extra half day of work a week for one child. It's not unusual to have 2 or 3 children who ideally require that level of planning. Where do you draw the line? I am paid to work 5 days a week - I'm not working a sixth day for free, especiallt at the expense of spending time with my old children. And then when in class I can't sit with them and give them the support they need - which usually is individual or small group support for the lesson - because everyone needs a bit of my time. I can't split myself into pieces.

@Ithoughtsummerwascoming Sorry, I do see you said 'bugs me' not 'upsets me' which is the phrase I used. The thing that bugs me is the insinuation that teachers don't want to provide for children with SEND, not that we're struggling to do our best for everyone.

And also differentiate between those that have and those that haven’t…..

@thesmee I totally agree. Some of the reccomendations we're supposed to follow are totally opposite of reccomendations for other students in the same room.

There should be better funded specialist provision at primary to plug maths and English gaps.

I currently teach a group of 13 year old, and most of them cannot do 1.6 x 10 in their head. That's not a failing of mine, by gosh I've tried, but students shouldn't come from primary without those skills. (not a knock to primary, like all of us they do the best with the resources available. The issue is there isn't enough resource).

Being good at maths does not make you good at teaching maths. They are two completely different skills! In fact I'd argue that for those pupils who struggle with maths, a teacher who themself wasn't such a natural at maths might be better able to explain. But it all depends what level of maths Rishi is talking about. If it's all GCSE and above then definitely one needs specialist maths teachers but if it's functional numeracy then your KS2 primary teachers might be better placed. Though again, the teacher shortage extends to primary too.

I'm really confused. Kids who fail GCSE maths already resit. Kids who love maths presumably do the A-level. So the real change here is making kids who passed GCSE carry on anyway? (My DC hated maths as a school subject but was a conscientious hard worker who got an A.)

Absolutely. The Y4 teacher who should have taught them 1.6 x 10 was likely struggling with a class who couldn't reliably multiply 16 by 10, or even 10 by 10, or even adding 10 and 10, because those foundations weren't laid early on. And the Y2 teacher who should have taught them 10 x 10 was dealing with children who couldn't form numbers correctly, because they arrived in EYFS with no concept of number at all... It's a small but significant minority of children who get rushed along through the curriculum from the very beginning without ever grasping the basic skills at each level.

As someone who spent years successfully teaching Maths to people aged 16 to 60, who had always struggled with the subject, I can confirm that, to do this:

You need a deep and specialist knowledge of the subject.
You need to be a teacher with a very particular skill set and relevant experience (in my case 20+ years teaching all abilities in school).
You need to understand how differently people learn and (literally) see what’s in front of them.
You need to understand and be able to deal with all forms of SEND.
You need endless patience and understanding.
You need to believe and convey to your learners that, while difficult, this may be one of the most worthwhile things they will ever do.
You need be able to share in their joy and satisfaction when they finally succeed.

My experience also tells me that you absolutely cannot succeed by sitting them in front of videos or logging them on to even a very good learning platform without support from a proper teacher. Anyone who insists this will work is ignorant and foolish and doesn’t understand anything whatsoever about mathematics or learning.

Is utterly think really what we think of someone who can't operate a petrol pump?

I would argue that you actually need people working in mathematical fields to be able to train to teach specialist courses. For example, teacher can teach data science to the level a Googler working in the field can.

Incorrect. No need for teachers to teach anything, just youtube.

I didn't say teachers were not needed at all, just that once children already have the ability to learn and understand the basics etc, they can then use YouTube to further their knowledge and understanding of various subjects. And or combined that knowledge when studying for their gcses, ALevels, etc

Plus if there were no teachers then private tutors ect could partly help fill the role, or other people that are not necessarily qualified but are knowledgeable in their respective business's, train others under apprenticeships. Etc,

Utterly thick

Teachers role is often to inspire, encourage cajole, Google simply cannot do this.

I'm sure many of us have done on line training and found the experience total de motivating compared to a classroom environment.

But point here is that if you have not grasped basic maths by the time you are 16, you wont improve by 18.

As said, this wont happen.... even if Sunak was genuine (he isn't) simply hasn't the time before the next GE.

train others under apprenticeships

I worked with apprentices. Guess what? They needed a properly qualified Maths teacher to teach them Maths. The evidence - exam pass rates - clearly showed that.

How is this workable. My understanding is that those who fail maths gcse have to retake. This is common at my son’s school, and those kids are not able to stay at sixth form so shunted to our woeful 6th form college which is unprepared to deliver.

there was a article that said maths retakes often end up with even lower grades than their first sitting.

According to my newspaper of choice (which is unlike some is impeccably reliable) teachers pay has been cut by 15% by the Tory government, and 45% of state schools report using non-maths teachers for some maths lessons.

If only the schools realised they don't need to use teachers at all.

Utterly thick.

I don't see the point. I hated maths but stuck it out and got my B in GCSE (my lowest grade out of them all).

Managed A/A* in my chosen A levels, first class degree and an MA and a job in a competitive professional industry.

I'd have failed Maths A Level... GCSE was a big push. What's the point in such a demoralising idea that will mean many kids won't want to do A Level?

I don't have to do complex maths at work or in life because I bloody dislike maths and so veered away from maths based careers. DP is excellent at maths and so chose it anyway.

It doesn't help you get into any degrees bar maths or STEM.

Nick Gibb on Times Radio has said that there will be enough maths teachers to implement this policy and that they would find ways to recruit more maths teachers.

Which begs the question - why haven’t they found ways to recruit teachers so far?

https://twitter.com/matilda__martin/status/1649031050234920961?s=46&t=vKGM6xpoeW3wdlaVVVagQA

I assume they've found the magic maths teacher tree

To be fair, is it the recruitment that is the problem, or is that so many people are leaving teaching? (I suspect both, but particularly the latter).

I think both. Recruitment of maths teachers is really bad (they've reduced the target so it doesn't look as bad as e.g. physics, god knows why) but I think data shows maths teachers are also more likely to leave than, say, PE teachers.

Probably both are due to maths teachers having plenty of other options.

A list of various individuals that had some formal education or were mainly self taught.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autodidacts

Is someone who had formal education until the age of 19 mainly self taught?