Aibu to think most European countries don't have an Education class system or a class system at all?

[Stellanotbud]

Aibu to think that most European countries especially former communist countries don't have a class system or educational class system like the UK.. Most kids all go to state school & muddle along? Snobbery isn't a prevelant in most European countries & educational standards are high & mostly state run.

No I'm not 5 @Mooshamoo - which is perhaps why I have a slightly more rational view of the class system and dispute your frankly naive and ridiculously judgmental statements.

You said "Ireland is a completely different country now."

Really? Poverty and homeless levels in Ireland are at a record high this year.

People suffering from homelessness is at a crisis point in Ireland this year.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/02/24/more-than-11700-people-homeless-in-ireland-in-new-record-high/

My niece is German. She is 9. A decision has already been made as to which level of secondary school she goes to - from what I can tell the decision was based on her teacher’s opinion rather than anything objective.

Most people have covered what I was going to say about French and German school systems. Many countries have similar class systems to the UK, often dependent upon your family rather than your own achievements.

And I suspect in all countries people with similar levels of wealth will tend to be friends with each other as they have common experiences. And similar opportunities.

It sounds like Mooshamoo has struggled in England and Ireland but I doubt they would have found it any different anywhere else.

There's a lot of international kids in UK boarding schools. Does the 0.7% include them?

Not sure, I've not looked much further into bar 3 or 4 quick glances of headline numbers. They just said 'British pupils' iirr.

@SparkyBlue I'm in Ireland too, the nearest private is the other side of the city. Couldn't justify paying, all the state primary's locally equally good. My three go to the local Gaelscoil & love it!

I dont know I live in rural West of Ireland and the first thing that happened when I moved here was people trying to suss out how rich we were and where we lived.

The family with the multimillionaire children even though the children were rotters were the most popular, the kids the most popular. The council estate kids were in no doubt of their place. The wealthier mothers hung out together and arranged play date with only the wealthier children.

Wealth is really important in Ireland. What car you drive, what clothes you wear, where you live is all noted and people file you away accordingly. I think it is stunningly naive to deny that. My kids are in secondary school now and again they have filed themselves into groups. The wealthier kids hang out with and date the other wealthier kids and the poorer kids stick together too. Sure you can move away, go to college as most do and then marry according to your job/status now but if you stay in the same town people know and people care.

Oh and don't get me started on travellers we all know where they stand in Ireland and there is no escape for them.

Yes Spain is seen as an undesirable holiday destination by many ffs.. France or Italy more high brow.. It's insane!

I agree with this money & coming from a "respectable" family.. It's ingrained.

Thank you so much!

I see it all the time in Ireland.

The wealthiest children are always the most popular in school. The wealthy children will only talk to each other. The poor kids are always looked down on.

The rich adults only hang around with the other rich adults.

@So1invictus I read before that the only Spanish born children that attend private schools are the ones who can't cope in the mainstream Spanish state school as the pace is fast & rigorous. It's not a badge of honour to go to private school in Spain, the opposite apparently.
Obviously international schools for expats etc are different.

I live in Austria. When I first arrived here and moved to a village I thought, "Oh, isn't this nice, no class system here". How naive was I. There is a very definite class system but it's subtle. As well as this, the nepotism is appalling - if you don't have contacts you won't get far in life. The Austrians call this "Vitamin B".

There is a system of grammar schools (Gymnasium) and other schools (it's quite a complicated system). At 10 children will go to Gymnasium or to a middle school. There are no entrance exams for the Gymnasium - it's all based on the grades the child gets in primary school, which are given out by the teacher. There's a lot of bias. Children of parents who are doctors, dentists, teachers, etc are far more likely to get the grades they need to go to grammar school, not just because their parents are more likely to push them to ensure they do very well at primary school but also because of the bias by the teachers in the primary school - the assumption is that the doctor's child must be better/have more potential than the child from the mountain farm (which is not correct of course).

Once the children have been split at this stage, it is very hard for a middle school child to swap to Gymnasium after 4 years - it's technically possible and children are told they can do this, but then they haven't learned Latin at middle school so often won't be accepted by the Gymnasium on those grounds alone. So the options then are to go on to a higher school which could lead on to the Matura (equivalent of A-levels) or to do one year at a polytechnic school and then an apprenticeship, or some schools offer 3 years after middle school including qualifications that lead to something like working in a supermarket (yes, you have to have specific qualifications for that) or entry to nursing.

Unfortunately it's all about who you know and who your parents are. I tutor children so I know exactly which children are in which schools.

As for the vitamin B, I had heard about this but didn't really know how it worked until I was asked to join a "hobby group" which turned out to be a slice of Austrian high society where the "hobby" was secondary to making contacts, thrashing out politics, finding jobs for other people's kids and so on and so forth.

@Ranevskaya the quality of education in Russia is supposed to be excellent especially in STEM, maths, music & the arts. That's great that it's open to all children & they recieve so much cultural capital within school.

Yes, I'm sure that literally only happens in England. Women in the whole of the rest of the world never do things like that.

Cannot roll my eyes hard enough at this bonkers thread! As a PP said, the rest of the world is a Utopia compared to the awful cruel, cold UK.

Clue: Just because you don't know much about a place, doesn't make it better than the place you are complaining about.

I would like to hear what your ‘most’ hypothesis is based upon. I have lived in the Netherlands for over twenty years and although private isn’t really a thing here the ridiculous and damaging way they have segregated state education is frustratingly infuriating.

Essentially it’s pretty much decided what stream of education you will follow in the last year of primary during. The system is pretty much rigged if you are poor, don’t have anybody to advocate for your child, have the wrong ‘surname’.

The class system is very much alive in the Netherlands, it just doesn’t have an official name.

Generally, compared to the UK, class is much less visible and it is certainly something from the Soviet times, with universal access to education and all those efforts aimed at achieving social equality and condemning the capitalist societies.

Ranevskaya Didn’t Stalin murder all the Russian upper classes so I suppose it’s not surprising there aren’t many of them.

So, in summary, based on the responses from those with experience of other European countries, most would seem to have some form of segregation in education based on class/wealth/background/politics.

Absolutely. People find it hard to suss me out because my parents aren't Irish and although I grew up here I have a very 'soft' Irish accent, I dress kind of eclectically not in the middle class mums uniform nor the poor mums uniform and it bothers people. They go to great lengths to try and 'place' me. Lots of probing questions which I like to dance around because I find it all kind of fun to watch. But to pretend people don't care is bollocks, they very much care.

So, in summary, based on the responses from those with experience of other European countries, most would seem to have some form of segregation in education based on class/wealth/background/politics.

Totally. It might be invisible to an outsider, but social stratification in education certainly exists!

You think communism promotes equality?

Surely you can’t have led that much of a sheltered life.

I agree. Wealth is extremely important in Ireland to the point of being abusive.

Rich people will only socialise with other rich people. But not only will they only socialise with other rich people, I feel like they treat "poor" people as absolute scum.

There is not even a veneer of politeness from rich people towards poor people in Ireland. Rich people treat poor people with disgust, and they will not go near them .

Thw most unfortunate always got picked on, when it is not their fault that they grew up poor.

I remember one poor girl that I went to school with in Ireland. She was probably the girl who had the hardest life growing up. The rich girls in our year refused to even speak to her. They mocked her. Purely because of wealth.

Similarly I was not popular in that school. Because I also was poor. So the girls in that school refused to talk to me. Me and the other poor girls hung around together. We were told that we were "less than" from an early age.

And this goes on way longer than school.

When I grew up I moved to a city in Ireland to work. I had very low self esteem because of how I had been treated but I tried to get on with my life. City life was a bit more anonymous and accepting.

After a while, I was offered a job in my hometown and I moved back to be closer to family. All the girls that I went to school with, still lived there, and they still refused to speak to me as an adult, because I was still seen as one of the poor ones. This was ten years after school had finished. Like it affects your whole life. It's crazy. I remember joining a choir and the women that were there that had gone to my school, refused to talk to me again

I had to leave that town again and go and work in a city.

But yes my early experiences have definitely made me feel like I am worth nothing, still to this day. I don't have great self esteem. One of the other girls that was badly bullied in school for being poor, ended up taking her own life. The class system is extremely damaging.

Really I thought former communist countries would be more equal at least educationally without many private schools & most it the former soviet bloc countries are known for their very high educational standards especially in STEM.

Former USSR educational system has a very tough curriculum. Loads of homework. But much longer holidays and much shorter school days. But equality? Dream on!

I think its bollocks that no other country has this.

Most countries have a system, where money matters, they just might not call it a class system. The reason why its so in your face in the UK is because for some reason we are proud of it and its very much ingrained and has been for years.

All countries/societies have a class system. It might not be called a class system but thats pure semantics. Every society/country have socio economic levels which are different to each other within them, view a view of what is good or preferable, with a view of how to maintain or achieve that level and sometimes with a view that people not on that level are not not as good as them.