Jeremy Vine - people are morally obliged to downsize and free up property

[JoanThursday1972]

Currently have this on the radio. Suggestion is that people are not entitled to remain in and live in the house that they have bought and paid for. That they should downsize and free this up for more deserving occupants, ie families.

This is surely a personal choice and not an obligation? Anyone is entitled to live in a house they have bought, regardless of size.

To be fair @KimberleyClark most families do seem to stop at 2 kids. I know hardly any with more than that, personally. I think in DCs (primary school) class there is 1 kid with 2 elder siblings. All the others as far as I know have either 1 or they are only children.

Even Prince Andrew apparently is fighting against ‘downsizing’ from Royal Lodge (30+ rooms) to Frogmore Cottage (10+ rooms). 😆
Maybe others have said this but it’s long thread to scroll through now.

@pigsDOfly > 'I drive a car that has seating for another four people but there is only one of me. Should I be required to sell it and buy a smaller car, perhaps a two seater, because surely, I don't need to drive around with that much space behind me ...'

My suggestion would be to buy some blow-up dolls to fill the rest of the seats because there may be someone alongside your car who loves to film people in their vehicles. On the occasions you've filled the car with more than one of you you can easily remove a blow-up doll to accommodate yourself.

On a serious note, the venom towards older people, summed up by the term 'boomers', really disturbs me. To describe a whole generation as 'utterly selfish' (hasten to add, not by you), as has happened on here, shows how categories of people are being pitted against each other to achieve political ends. Those 'boomers' are not sitting in their mansions, huddled over their smart phones, calcuting the massive rises in their pensions and how much the current estimated resale price they could get for their property. The boomers didn't create the demand for property as an investment; rather than a home. That was created by various government policies. 'Boomers' have/had parents/grandparents who've lived through two world wars. 'Boomers' helped to rebuild the country after the 2nd World War. When my first husband was born in the '50s the UK still had ration books. If you're classed as a boomer, but your partner is much younger, who is the selfish one if one of you doesn't want to downsize? I'm being facetious, but most of the things that the generation coming after the 'boomers' think of as necessities didn't exist for boomers as they were growing up. If boomers want to hold onto the home they slaved for rather than downsize to a tiny new-build apartment with barely any windows, or any outside space, that's their right.

Everytime I watch debates on the Jeremy Vine show on C5 I use the caveat; what is the Government aiming for?

"If boomers want to hold onto the home they slaved for rather than downsize to a tiny new-build apartment with barely any windows, or any outside space, that's their right."

It is their right. I don't think anyone is arguing that (well maybe they are and I missed that) but I think the upsetting thing is the attitude that "boomers" shouldn't be expected to live in a " apartment with barely any windows, or any outside space" but it's totally fine for a family of say 4 people to live in that same property. Why? There was even some "boomers" boasting upthread about how they lived in an area that had great schools. Like it was so funny that families can't live there. Or suggesting that younger people should just stop having kids. I can see how that is breading "venom".
Fwiw I don't think people should be forced to downsize. Of course not. But they could have a bit of empathy rather than being affronted at the indignity of the idea of living in the very same homes younger people have to live in along with their children.

I think the upsetting thing is the attitude that "boomers" shouldn't be expected to live in a " apartment with barely any windows, or any outside space" but it's totally fine for a family of say 4 people to live in that same property

I repeat, nobody is saying its totally fine for a family of 4 to live in the apartment you describe. The point is it is not the responsibility of current homeowners to ensure that family is adequately housed. Nor should those homeowners be made to feel guilty that the family is not adequately housed.

Why? There was even some "boomers" boasting upthread about how they lived in an area that had great schools. Like it was so funny that families can't live there. Or suggesting that younger people should just stop having kids. I can see how that is breading "venom".

Yeah in response to how boomers are selfish, morally bankrupt, should buy shit over 55 retirement flats that eat up everything they've worked for.

And it is true that if you don't have the housing for a big family, it would be sensible to wait until you managed to get what you need to start a family, rather than put yourself and your children in an overcrowded housing situation. And then complain at older people for living in houses that you would like.

Now that is breeding venom. Nasty ageism directed at the older generations as usual.

Although I do live near good schools.

Also not a boomer.

But I plan to remain here in old age.

It is their right. I don't think anyone is arguing that (well maybe they are and I missed that) but I think the upsetting thing is the attitude that "boomers" shouldn't be expected to live in a " apartment with barely any windows, or any outside space" but it's totally fine for a family of say 4 people to live in that same property. Why?

You seem to be under the assumption that the squashed family of four could afford the large “under occupied” house, they can’t, they are living in what they can afford and what they can afford is a small house, it would make absolutely no difference to the family in a small house down the road from me if I put my large house on the market, it’s way out of their price range.

@Swiftbushome

I'm not actually suggesting we withhold anyone's pension money if you read my post. Just pointing out what a ridiculous suggestion it is that young people should stop having kids if they don't want to live in overcrowded housing. Hope you're enjoying all your bedrooms you use to house your cat / your sewing machine / jigsaw puzzles.

Gosh aren't you so terribly angry and resentful and vitriolic. I pity you. Life must not be treating you very well. No reason to take it out on those who DO have better lives though - and want to KEEP them, as they have fucking well earned it!

@Jonei

I'll go without the care from those who despise older people anyway, and keep my house instead.

Excellent post! As you say, better to be alone in old age than have these rancid and resentful and bitter adult children and their spouses 'caring' for you. (Though many people I know over 65 are NOT alone anyway, as they live in lovely communities, and have many kind and helpful people around them. And THIS is one of the many very valid reasons they won't move.)

@DannyZukosSmile

Obviously SOME people buy them, (McCarthy Stone shitholes,) and whoever it is has more money than sense, but I don't know anyone who has...

@Jonei

I know one person who has. Family members took the decision out of the older relatives hands and made arrangements to sell up their property whilst they were in hospital and replace it with a McCarthy and stone flat. The older person never got over it, now they spend their life really miserable and waiting to die.

What a disgusting way to treat an older family member. It was very likely one of the posters on here. There are a handful who clearly loathe and despise and resent senior citizens and pensioners.

Really, they should be building more houses that meet people's needs, not blaming the people who live in them. I expect I will downsize at some point once the kids leave home – in about 10 years – but then they may well come back after uni when they can't find anywhere they can afford to live.

@DannyZukosSmile no need to pity me. I have a perfectly nice life thanks. I have a decent size 2 bed house and 2 kids of the same sex who are happy to share the bedroom that me and DH are not in. But I know plenty of others of a similar age to me who aren't so lucky. A family who live in a 1 bed flat for example so the parents have to sleep on a sofa bed in the lounge. And im fairly sick of the attitude that a lot of older people have that they should just put up with it. And actually a lot of older people really haven't "earned" everything they have or get. A lot of them were just lucky to have been born at the right time.
But actually I'm not even suggesting that people should have to move. Just maybe they should be a bit more thoughtful. But I suppose that's too much to ask of a lot of people.

And im fairly sick of the attitude that a lot of older people have that they should just put up with it

For the third time, nobody is saying they should just put up with it. Protest, campaign, take to the streets to demand more affordable housing... have at it... many of us would agree with them. But you don't take rights (i.e. homes) away from other people in the process.

A family who live in a 1 bed flat for example so the parents have to sleep on a sofa bed in the lounge

What do you think they should have done differently? Waited until they were older with more money behind them?

And actually a lot of older people really haven't "earned" everything they have or get. A lot of them were just lucky to have been born at the right time.

Oh you don't think any work was involved in spending a lifetime paying for it then. Maintaining it, extending it, years and money all put in to that. But all just down to luck.

Just maybe they should be a bit more thoughtful. But I suppose that's too much to ask of a lot of people.

With all the stinking ageism going on?
Nah, I don't give it any thought. Not my problem. I'll do what I can to get my kids on the housing ladder. That's it.

And im fairly sick of the attitude that a lot of older people have that they should just put up with it.

Why is your housing issue the problem of older people who don't even know you? Do you think they should hand their house over to you? Because not fair?

@Whisper23 it's true that you're not suggesting people should have to live in crowded housing. And most older people probably do think the same way as you. But there are plenty on this thread who suggest that young people should just not have kids until they have a decent sized house for example. Which would obviously rule out kids for ever for a lot of people. That's really not an acceptable attitude in my opinion. But to quote you "for the third time" or actually maybe I've said it more than 3 times, I don't think we should take homes away from people or force them to move. I just hate the gloating attitude that a lot of people here have.

@itsnotmeitsu I love this idea - the blow up dolls, that is - It'll give me a whole new group of friends and I can drive around feeling like every journey is an exciting road-trip type adventure😂

But yes, you're right, the ageism on MN is dreadful. It always has been, it's not just this thread, and Boomer is thrown around as a insult all the time.

Any thread that mentions MILs, for instance, frequently turns into an ageist thread, because according to MN anyone over retirement age knows nothing about anything and is a racists, Daily Mail reading homophobe; it's very strange and frankly, gets very tedious.

I don’t feel like I’ve ever gloated about living in a house that’s bigger than I need, but I’ve been told by many people that it was selfish of me to buy it when a “hardworking family” could’ve bought it. I find it really weird and kind of insulting that many thing the only people who should get nice things are those with kids. Everyone else is a “lazy not-family” who should get the scraps left over, clearly.

I’m not a boomer, either. I’m single and most families I know have much more disposable income than I do!

And actually a lot of older people really haven't "earned" everything they have or get

DM worked in factories for over 50 years. Shes now 87 She didnt retire until Christmas 2015, two months before her 80th birthday She worked full time on the factory floor in a poultry factory. Hard and dirty work. I think she more than earned her three bedroom house (my childhood home)

But there are plenty on this thread who suggest that young people should just not have kids until they have a decent sized house for example. Which would obviously rule out kids for ever for a lot of people. That's really not an acceptable attitude in my opinion.

What is acceptable? That other people who don't even know you give up their house to you instead? Is that acceptable to you?

Personally I think an acceptable and sensible position to take is to wait until you can get a house rather than bringing children into over crowded accomodation and then complaining about it. If those were the choices and I couldn't get there, then I wouldn't have bothered to have kids. These days it seems to be a case of act now, work it out later. And complain about older people taking up housing stock whilst living in overcrowded accomodation, rather than blaming the government for not providing enough adequate housing, or working out what realistic options are available to you.

@fitzwilliamdarcy also.............see the employers who also think family friendly just means those with kids

Tell me about it - I work for one!

I don't understand how this would help the housing crisis. Most of the people struggling are unable to access social housing. I've not heard of an issue people trying to purchase a bigger home ?

I guess im a boomer person (just about at61) - we don't own for all kinds of reasons - but I do think some of the attitudes on this thread suck slightly (from both sides of the argument) - it certainly isn't the case that every older person has slaved away for years to be able to afford a house, I myself got very annoyed in real life when someone I know kept talking about their house being through her hard work ( when she herself had never done more than 12 hours a week paid work after the age of 20 and that was with grown up children too ) - she was just fortunate that her H was reasonably well paid and that houses were much cheaper to buy relative to income at the point they bought. They had also inherited several times. There are also whole groups of older people who have been able to buy social housing at very modest cost that they have either kept or sold at a very good profit to give them a lift up and values have rocketed in many areas.

On the other hand there are also posters who seem to think they have a right to dictate that older people have served their purpose so a 'move out the way' attitude seems to have taken over.

Instead of turning on each other the whole system in the UK needs a damn good shake- we need to be providing far more good social housing of all kinds and not just for people on the bones of their arse, so that the young can save (if they want to buy) -so that people can leave dysfunctional relationships and aren't rushing into piss poor relationships just to have someone to share costs and so that older people can have choices.

This thread is enough to make you think about euthanasia! It is that depressing. Some on here don't seem to give a shit about how difficult it is to be younger and a modest earner, the lack of hope about having secure housing or the ability to have a family- and yet long hours, often no overtime payments, paying for further education, no pensions etc

-And some younger people here too , who don't seem to have any empathy about why older people don't want shoving out their homes into poorly built 1 and 2 bedroom blocks when they have a lifetimes worth of 'stuff' and memories in a place.

It's not individuals that are the problem- it's the housing model here that's a real issue , it's buy to let, it's right to buy, it's houses being used like cash machines , it's feeling you have to buy to have any protection. The politicians need to get a grip!

I had to laugh earlier at an item on the news. Apparently we arent having enough babies. Im child free by choice because honestly? i didnt want a life of drudgery but people like me were told by successive Governments that we shouldnt be having kids we couldnt afford.
NOW they are moaning we havent had enough.

I think people should go on 'reproductive strike'..... if the govt wants more children they need to run things so that we have a society into which we want to bring children!