To think it’s shocking how bad Britain has fallen apart compared to other European counties

[TheColourofspring]

I am in Spain at the moment in one of the big cities. It’s clean, modern, well maintained. Transport is cheap, food is cheap, healthcare seems to work pretty well (from talking to local). Parks are noticeably well maintained- even saw park keepers! Clean & tidy.

Pensions higher, if you lose your job you get a portion of your salary in unemployment benefits while you look for another and there are no penalties. Based on the premise that if you have paid in, you will get looked after if you are in need.

I am not saying it’s perfect- no country is but it was the same when I was in France last summer.

In Britain, everything is underfunded and close to the edge. Schools, the NHS, local authorities are all at breaking point. My local parks look shabby & there is very little maintenance. Roads have pot holes. Yesterday I read an article about pharmacies being the latest at ‘crisis’ point with major drug shortages (thanks to brexit). Queues at borders, people can’t heat or eat properly, food banks, housing is ridiculous for many people.

I think it’s just so noticeable when you go to other places just how run down Britain is.

Finding it shocking and a bit depressing - like I said, all countries have their issues but I think Britain really has been pillaged by the tories & Brexit really is a disaster.

Yep, rapists likely won’t even go to court, the rare few do and if they’re really unlucky may ger community service. In recent years the rate conviction rate has increased by 75% in sweden, the minimum punishment is four years in prison, victims of rape also don’t have to show they were subjected to threat, force etc, sweden also recognises that people who are intoxicated are unable to consent to sex neither are those who are under duress, incapacitated or in an unequal power dynamic.

Agree OP. I was in Spain last March, and this March. Village in Southern Spain. Truly is a breath of fresh air. An ex colleague who became a good friend lives there now with her H - theyre both Spanish. We stay with them so have been a good few times. It's not touristy so its local life. 3 weeks of bliss, next time I'll stay longer

A lot of us posting here have more experience of other EU countries than just holidays. You could live, work and spend months there once

There is a lot more to the UK than London. The north of England is massively underfunded. The midlands are massively underfunded. I am in East Anglia, which is supposedly well-off, but I know of 3 families who haven't got a school place next year.

In addition to that, 30+ children in a class screams to me that we need more schools.

This thread reminds me of the public debate on the state of the UK ~ very black and white. Whilst it’s so often shades of grey. My OH is European and his country’s standard of living has fallen due to rising energy costs and food prices. My SIL is Italian and he wouldn’t go back because ( quote) ‘ the country is a basket case and nothing works’.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t real issues here. I fear the NHS is dead other than for emergency care. But no politician will tackle that because of its quasi religious status here. In the Netherlands and Germany there is a very high tax ( about 250 euros per person, 350 per couple per month ) to access the health service. That’s a lot on a state pension which is similar to ours. People have to budget for it. In both NL and Spain, when we’ve needed medical care ( stitches), we’ve had to pay up front as visitors and claim it back. Same in Oz, same in US. We need a proper commission to investigate the future of the NHS and politicians to be courageous about change. It isn’t working. Both my children have jobs with private health care as they don’t believe in the NHS anymore and I see that trend continuing.

I also feel the social divide has widened here. Lots of people are comfortable ( look at the holiday threads, the second properties, the ‘accidental landlords’). But at the other end, insecure jobs, a low wage culture ( driven to some degree by cheap imported labour which is why so many unions and Jeremy Corbin were pro Brexit remember) and higher prices have pushed far more into poverty. As someone who works in education, I know we also have some very low aspirational families who live in a benefits cycle ~ sorry that may not fit the narrative, but it’s true.

And Brexit has hurt us ~ that is an indisputable fact. All the data proves it. But let’s also remember that Labour is not saying they will challenge Brexit, reverse or adapt it. So change of government will leave that fundamental issue unresolved

I’ve never voted Tory and never would. I didn’t vote for Brexit. I’ll probably vote Labour because the Lib Dems and Greens are too out there on women. But if Labour were to form a cohesive policy on re~entering the single market, it wouldn’t be a ‘probably’. I actually think the Tories will get in again because Labour are so unclear on policy.

So are we shit? My life isn’t, my family’s isn’t and we’re a clear working class, moved up to LMC bunch. Are our living standards lower than our European/American family ~ no. But do I see major issues in the fabric of our society which has lead to a huge polarised debate and a lack of talent and political will to address those issues ~ absolutely.

And don’t get me started on the potholes.

The French rioting is a healthy thing! Their government are trying to reduce resources to the majority of the people which will lower their quality of life.
They are not putting up with it and neither should we.

Yep, the only reason we secured a school place within catchment is because our son is one of the higher priorities for a place, a neighbour was allocated a school over 15 miles away.

People’s notion is that the better off should pay more tax but believe it or not that’s not a solution - we have pretty high tax rates. Where is all the money going? I’m also hacked off by the extreme wealthy (multimillionaires ) who don’t pay tax. No party ever gets them as they just change jurisdictions as necessary. The tax take for high earners in the system and therefore fully accountable for all earnings is quite high and moreover with fewer benefits such as income linked state pension not sure why that is.

We have too much focus on income tax & plenty of the "rich" aren't paid through PAYE

"Using anonymised data from personal tax returns, we show that in 2015-16 the average rate of tax paid by people who received £1 million in taxable income and gains was just 35%: the same as someone earning £100,000. But one in four of these paid 45% – close to the top rate – whilst another quarter paid less than 30% overall. One in ten paid just 11%—the same as someone earning £15,000. The rich, it seems, are not all in it together."

Wealth inequality as being driven by house prices & rents that are astronomical plus at the same time wages stagnated.

"For example, only 36% of those born in the 1980s were homeowners by age 30, compared to 55% of those born in the 1970s and over 60% of those born in the 1950s and 1960s. A natural consequence is that wealth is becoming increasingly concentrated amongst older people, whilst half of working-age adults are now renting."

"For those born in the 1940s and 1950s, incomes would typically double from their late 20s to their early 50s. However, those born in the 1960s only saw income grow by around 50% over that period, whilst those born more recently look set to see weaker growth still as they age."

We have screwed over the young, of course some will benefit from that older housing wealth but what about those that don't.

You are right OP. I’ve been in Germany and Spain for work so not touristy areas and the difference is striking.

lack of public spending is the main issue so we can see issues more readily. Council budgets in non Tory areas have been cut dramatically and it shows.

Welfare will also need reforming at some point, God knows how because people will freak out.

Whilst I agree Britain certainly isn’t perfect and a huge amount could be improved, my DS lived in Spain for 5 years until fairly recently, so we went out there 2-3 times a year.

Not sure what city/area you are in but I actually found the place pretty disgusting. Dog 💩all over the beaches and on pavements, graffiti everywhere, fly tipping in beautiful scenic areas, litter all along the roads, rotting stinking rubbish piled high in dumpsters outside shops, streets sticky with some unknown substance and poor road maintenance, particularly on steep hillsides which looked particularly dangerous.

The only thing that I thought they did far better than us was public transport. The trains were immaculate, modern and tickets at a very reasonable price.

I think that Brexit is partly responsible (and that this will become even more apparent over time) but I also think there is a significant cultural difference between the UK and a lot of countries in the EU in terms of collectivism v individualism. I think, thanks to Thatcher and others, that the UK is a bit more individualistic in attitude.

Many people in many EU countries pay a lot more tax which provides good public services like education, roads, bin collection, public spaces, subsidised public transport etc. And while health care is not free, it is non-profit or heavily subsidised. That is a policy choice for individuals to have less spending money in their pocket and more money put towards the public good.

You will see this reflected in a retail sector that is less vibrant than in UK - people in the EU often don't spend as much on their clothes or interiors as people in the UK - and they save more money in the bank too. (Obviously this is a massive generalisation - speaking very broadly - there are huge variations within countries and between different classes within those countries.)

I think this also explains to some degree the UK's historic distrust and suspicion of the EU institutions and why we, very sadly, were always slightly at odds with the EU project as a whole. Personally, I think this is a great shame as I think the UK had a lot to offer the EU and vice versa , but you can take a horse to water ... .

I suspect that the Tories will win again too because Labour have alienated so many women and seem intent on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Theresa May tried to reform social care and people freaked out, so we get what we deserve.

I think it’s going to take a major crisis or the complete die off of the boomer generation, so that the government no longer drives policy to appease the pensioners.

People in the UK appear to be incapable of understanding and making difficult choices in government for the benefit of society.

This will likely piss off a lot of posters, but many British people tend to be less prepared to get their hands dirty and actually work than their European counterparts. It's easier not to work and live on benefits than it is to work in fields or unsociable hours. Many people think they are "above" working blue collar jobs and instead apply for work that is oversubscribed when there would be work readily available as a cleaner or in McDonald's.

@MooseBreath I agree, and I'm British. I think too many people here are lazy, content to live off state funds and haven't the sense of dignity and self-respect that I see in eg my Eastern European friends. This definitely isn't the whole problem (and I do blame the Tories for a lot) but it is a factor. Relatively speaking, we've had it too easy for too long.

I think it’s going to take a major crisis or the complete die off of the boomer generation, so that the government no longer drives policy to appease the pensioners

Lovely bit of ageism there. 🙄

Totally agree OP. I recently spoke to a student visiting Manchester from Portugal for the first time and her first impression was of how unequal everything was. Huge houses and range rovers and then constant begging, visible drug addiction and so many sleeping rough on the streets. She’d got the exact measure of England almost immediately

@MooseBreath where did I say it was? but generally trends that start there, just show up
sooner. And it's not happening just in London, if you google.

"but I know of 3 families who haven't got a school place next year."

which doesn't change the fact that many schools are being hit by the falling birth rates.

It’s possible. I also think the left’s inability to say a positive thing about the U.K. whilst hamming up all others to perfection will play a role.

We’ve had doom foisted on us from the media for a few years now. A cycle of Covid misery has just turned into a we’re shit story. Whoever can get away from that and allow people to think positively about U.K. will get a sort of bounce.

Inflation falling is probably key to that.

It's easier not to work and live on benefits than it is to work in fields or unsociable hours.

and still we get these tropes, yep the problem is the workshy on benefits 🤔

Theresa May tried to reform social care and people freaked out, so we get what we deserve.

I thought it was an ok solution & one is certainly needed but she was hated for it.

Agree

Maybe they are hoping it’s when they get to that age

The NHS needs totally changing. It needs to be more insurance based or pay-in based like so many other countries.

People won't vote for it though, they think they paid into a pot that got saved somewhere.

This country is ruined. It will take a generation to put right what’s gone wrong, if at all. It’s so sad.