To think this is a serious error and the resolution doesn’t really cut it

[Myinterestingnewpath]

Visited a well known chain restaurant, early in the week so it wasn’t busy, only about six tables tables taken. I was with my daughter, asked if I could have a table instead of a booth, as I have an assistance dog. My dog is a small/medium size, and was wearing his harness. I got asked if he was a guide dog, I said no an assistance dog. He then asked what that meant. I explained that the dog helps me with tasks that help me live my daily life. He then asked what exactly that meant. So I explained I have neurological damage after breaking my neck, and I can’t feel my fingers so drop things and the dog retrieves them. I also explained I have balance issues, so bending down without falling over is a problem. I then got asked if it was a guide dog again. I said no. He then said you can’t come in because it’s not a guide dog and you’re not blind!! I am not a confrontational person so I just said ok, we’ll just go the restaurant next door, (which is owned by the same group) as they always welcome me. The next day I rang head office and they admitted that what he did is unlawful, and they would do some staff training. Turning away a disabled person because of their equipment is a serious issue. Dogs are classed as auxiliary aids same as wheelchairs. I have been offered £20, I think they’ve got off lightly. What do mumsnetters think?

YABU-restaurants can choose who dines
YANBU-it’s discrimination

To raise awareness, since so many people are ignorant of the law?

When it comes to demanding people produce proof of their disability, it's the start of a very slippery slope. Can you imagine? "Sorry, sir, for all I know you're in that wheelchair because you're lazy, unless you show me a badge I can't help you go up in the lift". "Sorry, madam, I know you claim to be pregnant, but unless you show me a badge I'm going to assume you're just lazy and I won't offer you a seat." "Unless you show me a badge, I'm going to assume that you're breathing badly for fun and I'm not going to help you find your inhaler".

This is awful. He was asking intrusive questions about your condition and what your dog's role in that is. He was on his harness, and I guess you had the correct proof that he was an assistance dog with you. That should be enough for anyone. He was hardly a bouncy puppy leaping all over the tables and seeing everywhere!

Both types of discrimination are the same under the 2010 Equality Act. I do understand that society sees racism as far more disturbing than disabelism, ableism or sex discrimination for example. This difference can be a big issue for a lot of disabled people and the disablism op experienced should not be minimised either.

As a disabled woman myself, casual ableism as well as casual disablism is very disturbing, frightening and can lead to me being physically injured. I can walk but do not use walking aids as they would be a hindrance. My disability rather like op’s is invisible.

I have a blue badge. Whenever I am out in public, I am constantly aware of just how vulnerable I am and how easily I could be knocked to the ground, which would be pretty catastrophic for me. I have chronic pain, fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue.

I was once discriminated against in an M&S changing room by a member of staff, who treated me like a child when I went to the disabled cubicle and humiliated me when I tried to explain I’m disabled. I was struggling to get a word in edge ways as she tried to usher me to a normal cubicle and berated me when I forcefully spoke over the top of her saying I am disabled.

I was with dd and she was about 7 at the time and we were both in tears. I haven’t been back to that shop since and she’s 14 now. It was an incredibly humiliating experience.

This isn’t my only experience. Eg I asked a young woman to keep their dog away from me as it was running around like a loon (big greyhound) and she screamed at me that I’m not as disabled as her mother (who owns the dog). Luckily I was next to a bush and could lean my whole body against it for support. Another time when I asked a man to help get someone’s dog away from me (the owner was over 100m away), he told me I should expect dogs to bounce around me and shouldn’t be walking where I was walking. I could go on…

Someone who would watch a person struggling to breathe and not help because they had no paperwork would be a sociopath, so it's a good thing you just invented that.

That's not really comparable to suggest that you carry round the paperwork that proves your dog is legally allowed to be in a place that other dogs aren't. It would have stopped this whole scenario from happening.

This.

I worked in a Jobcentre around 5 years ago, and one of the customers used to bring in her dog in, dressed in a home-made "assistance" jacket. And it caused so many problems;

One of our colleagues was blind and had a registered guide dog, and the customer's dog kept barking at him while he was working. Whenever that customber visited, we also had to manage comments and complaints (not just from customers but also security contactors) that the customer's dog smelt so badly they couldn't be in the vicinity. When a manager spoke to the customer about her dog, she then filed a complaint against the staff member on the basis of discrimination.

Not that I'm suggesting your dog is badly behaved (or pungent) OP, I'm just trying to highlight the problems that venues face currently, and how a certification process (and legislation tightening) is much-needed.

I'm sure a lot of assistance dogs are perfectly well behaved, but without full training and certification etc, venues cant be sure that it won't cause problems. Or that it's not just a chancer taking advantage of a loophole to bring in a family pet. Because sadly the way it is at the moment, it's completely open to abuse.

I think YABU.

If you have an assistance dog that you want to take everywhere, you should keep the paperwork with you. Otherwise how can people know if you’re telling the truth? We could all pretend our dogs are assistance dogs.

Also, can’t your daughter pick things up for you?

In answer to your question how do I pick up poo. First of all I can bend down, but to do so repeatedly in the course of a normal day, has a cumulative effect on the pressure in my neck. When the pressure builds I am more likely to fall. Secondly the dog is trained to toilet, on command, it’s something I’ve always trained in my dogs. Thirdly I have a raised patio and my dog is trained to toilet on that, so I can pick up from waist height. He usually goes on the patio before a walk. Walks are for his enrichment and my mental health. He very rarely poos on a walk, but I do manage to clean up on the rare occasion this happens. If I’m in danger of falling I would ask a fellow dog walker to oblige and offer to buy them a coffee.

Who supports paying more tax to fund this new dog training and registration scheme?

You've missed the point, Starting on a path of refusing to recognise disability unless someone has a badge or a piece of paper is the start of a slippery slope that leads to that sort of conduct. Society expects a reasonable amount of sensitivity to disability, not demands for proof before making standard accommodations. Obviously there is no issue that OP is disabled, witness the fact that the next door restaurant within the same group has no problems with accommodating the dog and head office offered compensation.

I agree that anyone can buy a harness or tag and try to claim their pet is a service dog and legislation does need to be clarified, but that’s not on the OP.

I agree the legislation does need tightened to endure all assistance dogs are trained, certified and then welcomed everywhere.
I know a woman with MS who has trained her own assistance dog (with help from a trainer) to fetch, carry and pick up things for her at home.
But the dog has not been trained to behave in restaurants the way eg. a Guide dog would be as he simply hasn't had that level of exposure on work outside the house.

I think this should be done. There's nothing to stop people from saying that their pet is an "assistance animal" when it's just a family pet.

There are far more tha just guide dogs. There are officially recognised hearing dogs, disability assistance dogs, medical detection dogs

I don't think it's unreasonable to offer an assistance dog's ID if asking for them to be admitted to a restaurant. I have a child with additional needs and if I am asking for accomodations such as moving to the front of a queue with them, I will show their ID listing their condition. I wouldn't put someone in the awkward position of having to accept my word for something or not.

Well hopefully they will learn something from this op. It is frustrating though that so many of these businesses do not understand their legal obligations.

I've seen plenty of guide dogs in my time, but I've never seen an assistance dog, so it's perfectly plausible that this member of staff had never encountered a customer like you and was not equipped to deal with the situation. The resolution of staff training seems like a good one.

If you're inclined to answer - how are people supposed to identify an assistance dog over any other dog?

I'm very allergic to dogs, and allergies do actually come under the Equality Act as they are a long-term condition that impacts your life negatively. If you genuinely had an assistance dog, I would try to seat you in a different section, get another waiter to serve you and hope I could get through my shift without being ill. But how would I know you had an assistance dog?

Guide dogs tend to be chosen not just for their temperament but because they don't really trigger as many allergic reactions as some other breeds.

How much of a problem is this in reality? There is a real danger that, in demanding certification, we are putting in place a cumbersome, expensive scheme that potentially disadvantages disabled people quite badly to remedy a minuscule problem. Plus if someone is that determined to pass their untrained dog off as an assistance dog, it's hardly going to be difficult to forge a certificate.

No. I haven't 'missed the point'. How patronising.

We are asked for ID for lots of things, some of them sensitive (age, pregnancy - that's why you get a maternity exemption card, entitlement to benefits, etc.)

If you are asking for something that would not generally be allowed (discounted ticket, free prescription or dental care, free entry to council facilities, etc.) then it's completely reasonable to expect to demonstrate that you are in fact entitled to that exemption or benefit.

Otherwise, very obviously, many people would take advantage of it.

To suggest it's analogous to watching someone struggle to breathe and refusing help is... extremely silly.

The fact that when you went to the restaurant head office they thanked you for not going to the press and/or taking legal action makes you realise that there were MASSIVE red flags over what their employee said and did and you would be well within your rights to challenge the £20 token amount.

They were so wrong to block your entry.

I'm also surprised that more people haven't heard of assistance dogs as opposed to guide dogs. I've heard of many many conditions that require assistance dogs, watching television can be educational on this. There was a lady who has an assistance dog and she was featured on The One Show because her dog basically can sense when she is about to have an episode that could be life threatening to her and her dog helps alleviate that.

I'm so sorry that there are ignorant people in the service industry that prevent so many people with assistance dogs from leading a normal life.

Education is key and yes, @Myinterestingnewpath , I would be challenging them on their measly offer of £20. They got off extremely lightly.

I was in a chain restaurant recently and there was a clearly untrained dog wearing a service dog vest, eating off the table. Absolutely gross. The staff vivisibly felt unable to do anything.
This is a problematic area. Most of us don't want dogs where we are eating, certainly not sat on the chair, eating off the table. Yet anyone can now claim their dog is a service animal, and now dogs are everywhere.

They’re asking you if he’s a registered assistance dog and the answer is clearly no. Which means he was right to refuse. You buying a dog and teaching him to fetch makes him a dog that can fetch.

I'm sorry you aren't aware of this problem and therefore dismiss it as 'miniscule'.

Here is just one example article from the Guardian about the huge explosion in fake 'emotional support animals' and the very serious problems they are causing, including biting, violence, and defecation.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/12/fake-emotional-support-animals-service-dogs

This article focuses on the USA but it is also a significant issue here in the UK. Here is one incident that happened here. In this case the genuine assistance dog was attacked by a fake 'support' dog. So in fact insisting on the paperwork would have protected the genuinely disabled person

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/womans-shock-after-fake-service-26685451

YABU OP.
The 'terminology' means nothing here. Only the legally issued paperwork. While it's not a legal requirement, and you shouldn't have to, the number of people carrying around untrained animals calling them all manner of things (assistance dogs, service dogs, blah2) is becoming a problem.
In a non-dog friendly environment these untrained animals can be dangerous. I've seen them cause waitstaff to trip up, jump on other people's tables to steal food. And worse, disturbing ACTUAL registered service dogs!

Honestly because the law is a gray area there's probably a case for discrimination, yes but logically allowing in everyone who claims to have an assistance dogs is going to make things worse for people like yourself. They definitely need more training. Not sure how to solve this

I suspect the reason the waiter was spectacularly wrong in how this is handled is because of the rise of entitled dog owners who think their creatures should be allowed everywhere. He's been told to shut down requests with a blanket no for anything other than guide dogs, not having the sense or confidence to allow assistance dogs into this bracket where they belong.

I think the company are handling it correctly to be honest. I bet behind closed doors the waiter is having more than just extra training for getting it wrong.

He's passed qualifications to be an assistance dog. He's not just well trained.