Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

[Nimbostratus100]

I've been thinking about that the argument of state schools not being able to accommodate another 7 % of pupils. It really doesn't add up

For one thing, state schools are frequently in a situation of having to accommodate 7% more pupils and they just stretch and cope. It wouldn't be any different.

And each pupil brings in more government funding.

And if all the private schools closed, we would have a fresh pool of 14% more teachers! More funding for teachers in state schools, and a massive increase in numbers of teacher applying!

Given that many vacancies are currently attracting zero applicants, this could be a total game changer!

Of course some teachers in private schools would not apply to state schools, an would just leave teaching instead, and some would not be qualified to teach in state schools.

But then, we wouldn't be taking in 7% more pupils, either, given how many private school pupils are overseas, or have parents overseas, and would just move to board in another country.

So say 5% more pupils, and maybe 12% more teachers! fantastic! even more so when you consider the resources potentially freed up - many of our best resources were donated 10 or 20 years ago by private schools, they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture!

And potentially, even school premises

what about renters?

Er, so where would I fit in the extra children in my class of 31 OP?

One of the deciding factors in sending our children private was being told that we couldn't get a place at the top ranking state school on our road because my children are Hindu, not catholic. The school we were offered was horrific, with police regularly having to deal with parents in the grounds.

Are you proposing to get rid of faith school status as well?

If private school hadn't been an option for us (we couldn't afford to move to a decent catchment at that time) we would have gone abroad. The money our NHS jobs pay doesn't compare to offers we have had over the years. It wouldn't have taken much to tip the balance and leave the country when making schooling decisions.

In regards to state schools getting the private school land and infrastructure if they close, I highly doubt this would happen, it would be sold to the highest bidder for housing.

You have missed a MASSIVE point - The government would have to fund the (previously private) new state school pupils.

Currently parents are paying 100% for those kids. They would then pay 0% and put the money in their (tax free) pension scheme.

Where is the money coming from OP?

The number on VAT on private schools don't even add up - the amount that would be raised on VAT would be more than wiped out by the movement of kids from private to state who could no longer afford it....it would in fact cost the Government MORE if VAT was added to private school fees. Labour are selling a lie on this one too.

On another thread you were advocating for a highly punitive approach to weed smoking @Nimbostratus100 which is bound to backfire, now this overly simplistic approach, so I’m taking your opinions with a pinch of salt

It might be 7% on average but the impact would be massively concentrated in certain areas, not equally spread. My city has about 25% attending private school at secondary, and I'd say that the majority of those kids probably live within the catchments of just a handful of state secondaries. And those schools are already full to bursting, they can't just stretch as they are physically too small with no spare land due to the areas.

At primary the situation is similar - my DD was at one of the primaries which would suddenly see a massive surge. It had a struggle a few years ago; they always had a significant drop off in the top half of the school as children were moved to private from about P4 onwards but that proportion reduced and people waited a bit longer. It caused massive problems as the school physically didn't have the classrooms to cope with the higher numbers. It now has virtually no amenity space, has has extra classrooms built, and is still struggling for space.

Close faith schools first
absurd religious schools exist, in the 21st century

I’d like, in fantasy land, to abolish private schools and make all state schools excellent, but seriously OP this is an awful argument for it.

“Schools stretch all the time so they could do it again” - you’re talking about normal stretch PLUS an extra cohort, not one or the other.

“Private schools have great resources and facilities which they would gift to state” - why? In a situation where they have been forced to close, what motivation would they have for this generous gift?

“Some private schools are closing anyway so there would be no legal issues with forcing them all to close” - my 5 year old knows the difference between deciding to do something himself and being forced to do it. Can you guess which one causes arguments?

“Terms and conditions are bad in private schools, lots of the teachers want to move to state” but simultaneously “there’s a recruitment crisis in the state sector”

“The government would have to fund the new state pupils” - you’re ignoring that either a) they could reduce the funding per child or b) they’d need to find billions of extra funding, where is that coming from?

“Rich parents would ensure the government funds the state sector properly” - bollocks. The super rich would send their kids abroad, or have swanky tutors to homeschool. The rest would put a lot of effort in to improving their own school, driving house prices up and only making things worse for the worst performing schools.

How come religion is a protected characteristic in every space except when it comes to school??

what an infuriating situation, @lunar1

One issue is that abolishing private schools wouldn't equalise state schools or education. You have the issue now where parents will move house, if they can afford it, to get their children into the best state school in their area. Affluent parents of state school children might also pay for extra private tuition, things like music lessons, drama groups and so on.

What we need to tackle is the wealth inequality in this country. The disparity in the quality of education is a symptom of this - also, to some extent, a cause, as children who are poorly educated are more likely to go into low paid employment and continue the cycle for their own children.

But a wholesale eradication of private education isn't going to solve a social issue that runs much deeper. We need to start narrowing the gap between the haves and have nots.

Um, the UK is experiencing a net loss of teaching talent. It is not inundated with experienced, qualified teachers who want to live in Brexit Britain, whatever sector they teach in

The vast majority of teachers trained in the UK and gained their experience in the state sector, hence benefitting from experienced state teachers' guidance and support.

And that's not a criticism of teachers who leave the crumbling state system or of parents who send their children to private schools.

Just astonishment that anyone can think that their children have been educated without a penny if tax payers money.

The only way any government could get rid of private schools is to make current state education really brilliant- lots more money, better trained teachers with better working conditions that improve recruitment and outcomes, and overhaul the curriculum (it's ridiculous that children are learning maths from age 4 and yet failing GCSE) while improving social care and attempting to raise standards of parenting in this country, which is woeful and producing the disruptive kids that can ruin education and attainment for many teens.

Then perhaps a proportion of parents would choose good state education over private which would slowly make mediocre private schools less attractive

A big problem with the state system, as many have already said, is that it's selective. Children are selected by their parents' ability to pay to live in an area where there are good schools. One of the biggest attacks on social mobility was the abolition of grammar schools, which, for all their faults, at least selected their intake by means of something approaching an actual measure of ability. The system was flawed, of course, but these flaws are easily fixed. For example, it should be possible to easily switch from a grammar school to another type of school, and vice versa, at the end of every school year, based on results. Those other types of school should also receive fair funding, and be geared to cultivating skills and experience. Each local authority should be required to have a fixed percentage of grammar schools, rather than in the past, when the proportion varied wildly. The entrance exam should be more flexible than the old 11-plus, and all schools should be single sex, as it's well known that girls do less well in mixed schools.

Abolishing private schools would not address these issues, and would probably make them worse, creating a two-tier system of state schooling. Having said this, once the state system is fixed, it may well be a good idea to reform the private sector too.

Grammar schools are ridiculously elitist. Parents paying tax to support a school system they may not even have access to.

Parents who support Grammar education are tacitly agreeing that comprehensive education is crap.

One issue is that abolishing private schools wouldn't equalise state schools or education. You have the issue now where parents will move house, if they can afford it, to get their children into the best state school in their area. Affluent parents of state school children might also pay for extra private tuition, things like music lessons, drama groups and so on
Agree with this.
One school in my area is excellent and as good as private. They have a very sensible approach to school uniform and rules. They have generally supportive parents, students who want to do well, lots of extra curricular activities and a lot of private tutoring goes on.
Another school in my area is an authoritarian bootcamp that has had to spend a lot of time focusing on crowd control because there's a decades long history of awful behaviour and not valuing learning.

I'll let you guess which one has the catchment with the eye watering house prices.

Do unicorns live at the bottom of your garden?
And if private hospitals didn't exist, the consultants would have to give 100% of their time to the nhs...
And if private bakers didn't exist, we would all take our dough to Windy miller to bake...
Are you the SoS forcEducation looking for advice?

“they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture!”

Why would the closure of private schools magically move that equipment to state schools?

Private schools are businesses.
You close them, you’ll likely force them into administration and those assets you lost will be sold (not given away) at the highest possible price by the administrators.

I would love to see some statistical evidence for your sweeping claims. I taught in a state school for 10 years and in private for the remainder of my career. Many colleagues moved from state to private, I can’t recall a single one who moved the other way. Anecdotal
evidence of course.

Grammar schools are not elitist, and were designed to give working class children an academic education. The implication of your statement is that children with other skills, rather than academic ones, are somehow less important.

You only have to look at the state sector now to see that school’s are hugely affected by people buying their way into catchment areas.

@Nimbostratus100 look at the best GCSE result school in your nearest non grammar area, and the worst. Then tell me what the average house price is in each.

If private schools closed immediately, short term you would have home schooling arrangements which would become groups.

the teachers would work there...those that wanted to stay in teaching.

i think a return to governess type posts would happen. Many private school teachers would teach many subjects.

i don't understand how you think this could work. It wouldn't benefit state schools.

ALL governments rely on private schools because if an extra 7% of kids attended state schools the government wouldn't be able to fund all the places.

Private schools save the government a fortune!

I agree with your thinking but the parents would then just spend a fortune on private tutors etc... rather than ploughing money into the schools.

I think OP wants a forced takeover of those businesses by the government, with all the equipment seized by government, and the magical idea that all the teachers would want to work in state.

I disagree with the fact that you can essentially buy a better education for your child if you can afford it. No it’s not ALWAYS better but let’s be honest, if there weren’t benefits no one would send their kids private. I also don’t disagree with individual parents doing what they think is right for their child and sending them private. I’ve taught children who I strongly felt specific local private schools would be the best fit for them.

But overall I just don’t think it’s right as a system. I think it perpetuates inequality. You’ll get flamed on here though because state schools can’t “just stretch”, and I do think it would just end up with certain state schools being essentially the new private schools, and I don’t think it would in any way benefit the state schools that really need help. Also people get very defensive about this topic (unnecessarily).

you make it sound like a bonus. The extra pupils will require the 'extra' money, so there will not be a surplus
And please show some research on the percentage of teachers who flip between state and private schools, because I doubt many do this. And I very much doubt that private school teachers will be gratefully flocking to state schools even if the private ones were closed
You are wearing rose-tinted glasses and need to brush up on your dociology and economics