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Original poster

Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

483 replies

Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 02:19

I've been thinking about that the argument of state schools not being able to accommodate another 7 % of pupils. It really doesn't add up

For one thing, state schools are frequently in a situation of having to accommodate 7% more pupils and they just stretch and cope. It wouldn't be any different.

And each pupil brings in more government funding.

And if all the private schools closed, we would have a fresh pool of 14% more teachers! More funding for teachers in state schools, and a massive increase in numbers of teacher applying!

Given that many vacancies are currently attracting zero applicants, this could be a total game changer!

Of course some teachers in private schools would not apply to state schools, an would just leave teaching instead, and some would not be qualified to teach in state schools.

But then, we wouldn't be taking in 7% more pupils, either, given how many private school pupils are overseas, or have parents overseas, and would just move to board in another country.

So say 5% more pupils, and maybe 12% more teachers! fantastic! even more so when you consider the resources potentially freed up - many of our best resources were donated 10 or 20 years ago by private schools, they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture!

And potentially, even school premises

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Whalesong · 12/04/2023 03:47

Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 03:16

The government pays schools per pupil. and state schools get less per pupil than private schools,, but do far more with it.

Your child would be educated for far less in a state school, partly because none of your money is going into profit for the business of a private school - which is a business. So the school would not get the £20k, but would not need it either

Do you ever wonder where exactly your £20 k is going? and how much is actually on education?

But yes, not all private school students would come to state schools, as some would just leave the country as you say, but that just increases still further the proportional numbers of fresh teaching talent

Show quote history

You really don't have a clue, do you? Private schools don't get a penny per pupil from the state - it's all paid for out of parents' taxed income.

Having said that we have no regrets as our children got an education that was immesurably better than they could have got in any state school. It was worth every penny. And we're leaving, so other countries will see the benefits in the end :D

EmmaGrundyForPM · 12/04/2023 03:47

I do think that we should adopt the Finnish model and outlaw private schooling, but realistically its never going to happen.

2023usernameNew · 12/04/2023 04:07

But you don’t want funding to grow proportionally, do you? You want extra funding.

if it’s done proportionally, then things will remain the same only that they’ll be shit for more people.

also, it’s not just the extra funding per pupil, how are schools going to grow in cities where there’s no space to expand or build new schools?

many schools in London are in prime locations that would be sold to build flats.

I honestly don’t understand why we can’t all live and let live.

my husband is left wing and he’s happy to work his ass off and get taxed nearly half his salary and get nothing in return in terms of our child’s education.

Why do you want to take this freedom of choice away from people?

Everydayshouldbe · 12/04/2023 04:14

2023usernameNew · 12/04/2023 04:07

But you don’t want funding to grow proportionally, do you? You want extra funding.

if it’s done proportionally, then things will remain the same only that they’ll be shit for more people.

also, it’s not just the extra funding per pupil, how are schools going to grow in cities where there’s no space to expand or build new schools?

many schools in London are in prime locations that would be sold to build flats.

I honestly don’t understand why we can’t all live and let live.

my husband is left wing and he’s happy to work his ass off and get taxed nearly half his salary and get nothing in return in terms of our child’s education.

Why do you want to take this freedom of choice away from people?

I don't think anyone can claim to be "left wing" and send their dc to private schools (barring some reasons connected to disabilities perhaps)

F4cesittingqueen · 12/04/2023 04:17

Bless you. I think it’s a nice idea, but in reality it wouldn’t really work.
the quality of education is significantly higher in private schools, some people might not want their kids to go to park bloc schools. Education is so important to kids so if there is the option for people to spend money on ‘buying’ the best then they should be able to really. It does mean there will be more teachers but they are unlikely to want to teach in state schools. You might just lose that workforce altogether.

snitzelvoncrumb · 12/04/2023 04:24

It wouldn’t work, because they would just go to another country. Probably taking their qualifications and tax with them.

Whalesong · 12/04/2023 04:27

Shinyredbicycle · 12/04/2023 03:42

Don't be daft, Whalesong. All school children are taught by teachers whose training was funded by the state ie tax payers money.

The private education sector wouldn't exist without the state, unless it was prepared to fund teacher training which would increase school fees massively.

Oh were they? What about the ones who were trained in other countries (you do realise that the UK is no longer anywhere near the top of the leagues)?

Please don't be daft.

Whalesong · 12/04/2023 04:32

snitzelvoncrumb · 12/04/2023 04:24

It wouldn’t work, because they would just go to another country. Probably taking their qualifications and tax with them.

My son's teachers in his private school are from South Africa, Germany etc. what do you say to that?
He also has some of the best Maths and Science teachers in the country. Because his school offers better conditions than most others.

Everydayshouldbe · 12/04/2023 04:39

I would hazard a guess, based on my own knowledge of private school staff, that the majority are trained in the U.K.

SD1978 · 12/04/2023 04:44

So where does the space come from to manage the sudden increase in each year group?

Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 04:46

illiterato · 12/04/2023 03:20

Listen to The Nice White Parents podcast. That’s what would happen. You’ll get a lot of state schools that are selective by stealth.

Also how do you outlaw private schools in terms of legislation? You have to say that all children must attend a state school. So you’d also get the homeschool kids back ( not sure how many that is). Many of those children are homeschooled as they didn’t cope in mainstream so you need to find resources to support them. You can’t say homeschool is ok but private school isn’t from a legislative perspective as they are both forms of private education essentially- many homeschoolers use paid services in part.

I also think you’re overestimating number of international students. That only impacts boarding schools - 13% private school students board and probably only half of them ( max) are international. So that’s about 0.3% you’d lose, not 2%.

well, quite a few private schools are closing anyway, no legislation required

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Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 04:53

MintJulia · 12/04/2023 03:15

The state schools would 'just stretch'. Like elastic ! Of course they would ! 😂

A labour govt can't just shut charitable trusts that have existed in some cases for centuries. They are legal entities. Court action would take decades. Half their MPs would object to the disruption of their own children's education.

And even if they did, most of the teachers at my ds' school would change career or retire. Most have already left the state sector and wouldn't go back, or are on second careers, after the army.

What about the children of posted service personnel (20% of our intake). Would the state provide boarding facilities? Or would the army have to change their parents' deployment? And the diplomatic/civil service contingent? Bring them home too?

And do you imagine the assets would transfer to the state? Labs and classrooms too small to hold a class of 32. At our school, the parents own the text books, sports kit and technology so nothing to raid there. Minibuses and larger items are leased, or owned by the PTA. Do you think independent schools haven't considered ownership structure and how to protect themselves?

A Labour govt can tax schools and make them more exclusive as a result. Anything else makes a nice soundbite on the campaign trail but won't fly legally and would cause more problems than solutions.

well, we do just stretch, and shrink, year on year, a 7% stretch isnt unusual at all

and charitable trusts are closing

and many teachers from the private sector do move to state, for better pay and conditions, and ex army teachers work in state too!

what do you mean by "private schools have considered ownership structure and how to protect themselves" how does so many private sector hand-me - downs end up in state? And what are they protecting themselves from? recycling thier unwanted resources to poorer children?😂why would they want to protect themselves from that?

The whole science department in my school was resources by a local private school closing a couple of years ago. It was ( an is) awesome stuff we could never have afforded. The music department benefitted too

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Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 04:55

Sailingaround · 12/04/2023 03:15

nope. Wouldn’t happen. The Tories are the masters of making people (including teachers) do more with less funding. There would not be a proportionate increase in funding. And another thing that would happen apart from rich people buying up the expensive houses in the best catchment areas is private tutoring would skyrocket.

I used to teach in a state school in an Asian country where private schools were not the norm. What parent did instead is spend lots on private after school programmes and private tutors.

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there is proportionate funding, that is how it works

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Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 04:58

WB205020 · 12/04/2023 03:07

Private schools own their premises and equipment. They wouldn’t just give it to the state and the state couldn’t just take it either.

private teachers usually earn more than state. I don’t think many would be willing to take a pay cut.

badly thought out idea that is doomed to fail.

It is not my idea, it is my response to all the private schools parents objecting to VAT on private school fees, arguing what a disaster it would be for state schools if they couldn't afford private schools any more, and they had to withdraw their children, private schools would have to close, and state schools would have to take up the "burden"

no, it wouldn't be a disaster at all, particularly from the staffing point of view, as state schools do make such more efficient use of their teachers! and plenty of teacher move each way every year, there is often better pay and conditions in state schools, and private schools frequently donate their old eqipment to state schools when they upgrade

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Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 05:00

Kennykenkencat · 12/04/2023 03:16

many of our best resources were donated 10 or 20 years ago by private schools, they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture

And potentially, even school premises

At a cost.

I think you are forgetting that private schools are businesses with owners and shareholders

They might sell all that stuff to the LEA but at a price.

Certainly won’t be getting stuff for free

Also where are these extra pupils and teachers going to go?

I would say most schools use all there classrooms so where will all these extra teachers teach if each needs a separate classroom

no, we get outdated private school stuff donated for free, both when school close, or when they upgrade

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illiterato · 12/04/2023 05:01

there is often better pay and conditions in state schools

but then I don’t understand why state schools are complaining of a recruitment crisis but private schools aren’t, at least not to the same extent.

Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 05:03

Kennykenkencat · 12/04/2023 03:40

I think not only would you drive not just the foreign pupils from our shores but also the pupils who’s parents take one look at the local comp and decide to transfer their businesses or jobs abroad in order to put their dc into a private school elsewhere.

So whilst state schools are gaining even more pupils and getting more money in (although not enough to actually cover educating a child given the state of State education)

It is going to cost the government even more money as they now have to pay out for these extra pupils but on top of that the government tax income reduces as some of the parents no longer pay their higher tax in this country

but the fewer private school pupils transfer to state, the proportionally bigger pool of teachers there are available

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gfhbd · 12/04/2023 05:04

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 05:06

Whalesong · 12/04/2023 03:47

You really don't have a clue, do you? Private schools don't get a penny per pupil from the state - it's all paid for out of parents' taxed income.

Having said that we have no regrets as our children got an education that was immesurably better than they could have got in any state school. It was worth every penny. And we're leaving, so other countries will see the benefits in the end :D

Show quote history

no, obviously they dont - where did I say they do?

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Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 05:09

2023usernameNew · 12/04/2023 04:07

But you don’t want funding to grow proportionally, do you? You want extra funding.

if it’s done proportionally, then things will remain the same only that they’ll be shit for more people.

also, it’s not just the extra funding per pupil, how are schools going to grow in cities where there’s no space to expand or build new schools?

many schools in London are in prime locations that would be sold to build flats.

I honestly don’t understand why we can’t all live and let live.

my husband is left wing and he’s happy to work his ass off and get taxed nearly half his salary and get nothing in return in terms of our child’s education.

Why do you want to take this freedom of choice away from people?

I am responding to the arguments often repeated on here, that adding VAt to school feels will lead to the collapse of the all or part of the private school system, and the will be a disaster for the state school system

no, it wont be a disaster, it will be a boon

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Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 05:11

F4cesittingqueen · 12/04/2023 04:17

Bless you. I think it’s a nice idea, but in reality it wouldn’t really work.
the quality of education is significantly higher in private schools, some people might not want their kids to go to park bloc schools. Education is so important to kids so if there is the option for people to spend money on ‘buying’ the best then they should be able to really. It does mean there will be more teachers but they are unlikely to want to teach in state schools. You might just lose that workforce altogether.

but the same teachers move between state and private during their careers, it isn't two separate species of teachers. Many teachers from private schools have appalling working conditions, and prefer to come back to state, so no, I don't think we would lose many. Some, maybe

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Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 05:13

SD1978 · 12/04/2023 04:44

So where does the space come from to manage the sudden increase in each year group?

well, prefabs in the carparks, etc, as we do regularly anyway,

but there is the possibility of academies taking over old private school buildings, as well

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snitzelvoncrumb · 12/04/2023 05:13

It would be wonderful though. If the government prioritised education and came at it from an ‘every child gets a great education’ rather than trying to force all the kids to get a shit one. I just got my kids out of a state school and into private. I would happily send them to state if it wasn’t like a juvenile detention centre.

Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 05:14

illiterato · 12/04/2023 05:01

there is often better pay and conditions in state schools

but then I don’t understand why state schools are complaining of a recruitment crisis but private schools aren’t, at least not to the same extent.

a lot of private school teachers are complaining about pay and recruitment, and also going on strikes.

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Original poster
Nimbostratus100 · 12/04/2023 05:15

snitzelvoncrumb · 12/04/2023 05:13

It would be wonderful though. If the government prioritised education and came at it from an ‘every child gets a great education’ rather than trying to force all the kids to get a shit one. I just got my kids out of a state school and into private. I would happily send them to state if it wasn’t like a juvenile detention centre.

you have my full sympathy, the experience of some children in state school is inexcusable, but reversing the recruitment crisis would go some way to remedying that

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