Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

[Nimbostratus100]

I've been thinking about that the argument of state schools not being able to accommodate another 7 % of pupils. It really doesn't add up

For one thing, state schools are frequently in a situation of having to accommodate 7% more pupils and they just stretch and cope. It wouldn't be any different.

And each pupil brings in more government funding.

And if all the private schools closed, we would have a fresh pool of 14% more teachers! More funding for teachers in state schools, and a massive increase in numbers of teacher applying!

Given that many vacancies are currently attracting zero applicants, this could be a total game changer!

Of course some teachers in private schools would not apply to state schools, an would just leave teaching instead, and some would not be qualified to teach in state schools.

But then, we wouldn't be taking in 7% more pupils, either, given how many private school pupils are overseas, or have parents overseas, and would just move to board in another country.

So say 5% more pupils, and maybe 12% more teachers! fantastic! even more so when you consider the resources potentially freed up - many of our best resources were donated 10 or 20 years ago by private schools, they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture!

And potentially, even school premises

They absolutely are and shouldn't be funded by the taxpayer IMO.

They may have been designed for working class kids but they definitely aren't now.

ANd houses would only be bought when houses were sold, and many private school parents would not move because they are in very rich areas already

Round here most of the local private school children live in the areas which are within the catchment of the 'best' state schools already. If they were to close schools (presumably to new students rather than just trying to place several hundred children of all ages mid school time) then these children would then take up catchment places for those good state schools. Lots of our local state schools have had to widen catchment areas, or take from outside catchment due to the number of local students not going to them. Introduce potentially more future students close to the school - less places for out of catchment.

Do you really believe all the potential new students who would have gone to private school would then be clamouring for places in the less desirable state schools? If so I think you are very naive. The children who will miss out in places to the best state schools will be those who can't afford to live in the best catchments.

My DCs went to a boarding school we were sent the accounts annually the vast majority of their income went on staff wages but the. This is hardly surprising with a ratio of 1 teacher for every 7 pupils and loads of other staff: matrons nurses catering staff admin staff gardeners cleaners etc. in fact after making a substantial contribution to the bursary pot and maintaining building etc school barely broke even. It’s a charity so no profits to share holders. The idea that state schools do more with less is laughable Ive worked in state schools and £45k pa boarding schools unless you’ve worked in both you have no idea how little the children at the former have and how much the children at the latter have. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong I’m just stating facts.

People who argue that private school kids would benefit comprehensive education because they are somehow miraculously going to transform it but also think its fine to have a system where the cleverest kids are creamed off to go to free schools that most local children can't get into are hypocrites.

That's because there are so few of them around, so they only tend to take children whose parents can afford private tutors, and so on. If, say, a quarter of all schools were grammar schools, this would not be an issue.

*illiterato · Today 05:01
there is often better pay and conditions in state schools

but then I don’t understand why state schools are complaining of a recruitment crisis but private schools aren’t, at least not to the same extent.*

Because in state schools, the pay is not the main issue, or the main stresses for most of the teachers who leave, often before they’ve hit the top of the main pay scale.
What makes a quarter quit in the first three years? They knew what the pay was when they started.

The only private school teachers that might find the move hard are the unqualified ones, as much fewer state schools employ unqualified teachers

This is a naive. Do you really believe that academies and non Lea run schools don't already use unqualified teachers? They can and they do, often more so than private schools. That's certainly the case locally.

Thank you! I thought I was missing something. It’s not just me, this is utterly moronic.

I suspect a lot of the teachers who have moved into private education may not return to state. They often moved for a reason. More likely many will start to create private tutoring services, making money from the old private school parents willing to fund additional 'top up' education for their children.

Sorry , am I missing something, where is this funding for all these extra pupils coming from? There is currently a huge funding crisis in schools, many heading towards big deficits!

The thing is - if people with their kids in private school move them into the state sector the state sector is going to need more funding....and you know who will be paying more taxes for this? Everyone including all the people without school age children. I can't imagine if you say to people without school age children - vote for this great idea where we close private schools and all these kids now have to be catered for in the government sector so you are going to need to pay higher taxes....isn't that a great idea?

Dd went to two private schools and was not taught be unqualified teachers. The list of qualifications for its staff was published online. All had the appropriate teaching qualifications, many had previously taught in the state sector too.

NonLEA state schools - so schools such as academies, which many schools now are - are also able to employ unqualified teachers. There is a pay scale specifically for unqualified teachers. Many haven't in the past but due to the teacher training and retention crisis the country is facing many are starting to do in greater numbers. A couple of local schools are doing so a fair bit now sadly.

Never going to happen. Save your brainwaves - not worth a moment’s contemplation…..

Yes this is exactly my experience. We live in an area, where traditionally the state secondary, run like a quasi private school, took children from our village. But it isn’t in catchment. Then there was a swell in birth rate and no one got in for about 4 years unless under the sibling rule. My dd therefore went to the catchment bootcamp school. Both on paper Ofsted outstanding. However, the students in top set were offered a number of perks on the quiet with the masses fending for themselves. On paper, education is all so important at the school except any student going to school with a wrong item of clothing even if it an affordability or other issue eg parents don’t care get sent to isolation (no education is provided in isolation) until they wear the correct piece of kit. My dd wasn’t in top set. She was in classes with kids, who were seriously misbehaving and disrupting lessons and that was nowhere near bottom set. Then there’s bottom set, which is reportedly even worse. And the kids in the lower sets tend to come from lower income families meaning they’re more likely to be sent to isolation.

Surely the super wealthy would just 'homeschool' with Nanny sitting in the corner, whilst the UK's best (and most expensive) tutors teach them?

Home based private school. And those 14% private school teachers would just become tutors?

Theres nothing wrong with private schools - the UK has a very obvious class system, and if those can afford to send their kids there - great.

The issue is the failure to ensure state school kids get similar opportunities of getting into good Uni's/post school jobs.

Maybe all schools should concentrate on critical thinking judging by MN threads. I wonder if the OP was state or indie educated.

It's a nice idea op but totally unworkable in reality. There are a million holes in your arguments, but I'll just mention 2...

What makes you think that all the teachers in the private sector would be willing to come into the state sector? The challenges faced on a daily basis are just not acceptable to many. They would just not move into state.

Secondly, you are correct in saying that the private sector has untold resources, equipment etc. The reality is that the state would already be providing these if there was sufficient funding...no government is going to match the resources paid for current in the independent sector. Do you think the government will just seize the assets Even?! Even if they did, it is unlikely that the ongoing maintenance would be resourced. The reality is (and I speak as a passionate teacher in all sectors over many years), I think in some schools the additional resources would not be treated well by students. I absolutely hate saying that and I know it is very controversial but there is a mindset about schools in some areas that simply doesn't respect them as institutions or the resources they provide.

Except private schools should be made to show how they are a charity.
If they can’t - then it would be entirely reasonable to make them pay VAT.
State schools could use their facilities, they could offer far more free places, etc. I’m sure they could think of ways of showing how they operate as charities in the truest sense?

If they don’t want to - their fees go up. Simples.

I'm not sure I agree with the OP but there are some rather unsubstantiated claims here. That all private school pupils have parents that are paying UK taxes...what about the parents living in other countries? What about fees paid by grandparents from wealth (rather than income) what about fees paid from inheritance. Are there any actual figures on this?

And what about falling rolls in primary? Classes are closing at our local state schools, maybe just reopen them?

And there is already a two tier system in state schools based on house price affordability. This might make it a bit worse but it already exists.

I think Labour are pretty clever to have worried lots of people in this way without having a costed policy and without actually being in power.

This thread is a perfect example of someone talking about something they have no understanding about.

I think Labour are pretty clever to have worried lots of people in this way without having a costed policy and without actually being in power

Clever? I think it's pathetic.

I think the OPs rather idealistic view ignores the fact that state education in the UK is elitist too. All of our (largely left-leaning) friends have moved heaven and earth to get their kids into the good state schools, by moving/buying second homes/renting in the catchment areas (not to mention attending churches affiliated to religions they have no interest in). They also pay for tutors/Kumon etc. to fill in the gaps & ensure their kids are going to get top marks. They can do this because they can afford to. They, too, are buying a better education for their children in the same way as private school parents are.

Taught in both, wouldn't go back to state. I don't get paid more but the smaller classes mean my marking load is less. Our management trust us as professionals so we are left to manage things for the most part ourselves and are not constantly scrutinised. My own kids, with great difficulty, are in private because both were failed by the state system. I'm in debt and will be so until such times as I can retire and downsize to pay off the mortgage extension I keep getting to stay afloat, but until the state system can adequately nurture and support kids who can't cope in 1000+, institutions, it has absolutely no right to preach about selfish "rich" people buying a better education. I would love to have that £1200 in my pocket every month, but I have to use it so my kids can reach adulthood without being broken by a system that does not / cannot care for them.

What exactly is your point?

You know we don't have a communist society don't you?

What would be next? All houses of equal size? No entrepreneurship? No private enterprise?

Life is not fair. Maybe just better to accept this?

The issue is they don’t work that way anymore. Parents, who can afford to privately educate their children do this with a view to getting them into state grammar. Alternatively they pay for a lot of private tuition. A lot of grammar schools no longer have catchment areas with very able students taking long journeys to go to a grammars, which can be 20 miles plus away from their homes. A no brainier when these grammars are on train lines from London for example. My ndn is considering getting their dc to apply for an out of catchment grammar school. The criteria 90% to achieve a place and there are no buses / trains so it’s quite a commitment.