Mothers are competitive and jealous

[cornfleurs]

I saw this study mentioned in the news and it really resonated with some of my own experiences since becoming a mother - as well as situations I've witnessed on the school run, problems my friends have encountered with other women and even threads on Mumsnet!

The researchers found that mothers responded more negatively to other women who had desirable assets (be that material or social) that they themselves didn't possess. In other words, women are programmed to be jealous of other women.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-31816-0

AIBU to think this sounds pretty accurate?

There are jealous women about for sure, but I don't know if it's as this study says. It just reminds me of those "studies" that say all women are either bi or gay but never really hetero. Men definitely get jealous too, probably the same amount of women that do. Sometimes it's just jealous of different things. A woman might be jealous of a woman with a nice figure, great partner, nice family, nice home, job etc. A man might be jealous of a man with a nice body, lovely partner, good job, nice car etc.

This isn’t my experience, but I quickly distance myself from very material people at the making friends stage.

Interesting. I have experienced jealously from other mums when dc were younger. It took me a while to realise that’s what it was. I think it was more to do with the relationship I had with my children than anything else.
I have quite low self esteem, no career, not a lot of family support. I’m not a game player, and I think this is what I was resented for.

of course I’m jealous of women who have a bigger, nicer home, more money, better jobs, nicer cars, better looks, more friends.
Do I give them any negativity? No. What’s the point? Be cruel to make myself feel better? That just doesn’t make sense.

I'd say this was envy though. I'm envious that my friend can eat crap everyday & stay slim but I like her so still want to be around her.

What a load of bollocks.

Competition for what though? I’ve always seen women compete for men and that’s why they wear tiny clothes (they don’t admit this of course). But once you’ve had children then I don’t really understand what women would be competing for.

A place to be on Amanda’s table? I’d have always chosen the toilet table so don’t understand this rubbish.

It comes from a deep seated fear that you're not providing enough for your children.

So the study asked participants to predict how others would react well what they would be feeling. The problem with this is that it's a poor measure of how people actually behave.

They even discuss this:
Empirical evidence consistently shows that self-reports do not correspond well to actual behavioral patterns 86. An alternative and more accurate method consists of asking for others’ reports based on their own experiences. Evidence demonstrates that individuals develop accurate models of others’ behavioral reactions 87,88.

I looked at the studies they used to say individuals are good at predicting others behavior and it's based on adolescents so maybe different in women.

The problem with anything like this is how do there's emotions actually translate into behavior? Humans are capable of many different things and thoughts of feelings but they don't act on them all the time and it's context specifc.

During a Zombie apocalypse yes resource competition would be fierce but the most likely time you'd see this manifest is on sports day parents race of something random like that.

You also have to remember humans have always co-operated in fact I read something that believed that's why we out competed Neanderthals and Women's social networks are a key part in building this co-operation and community.

I don’t agree we are ‘programmed’ to be jealous.

I think people can subconsciously compare, but it’s not necessarily from a place of jealousy or envy.

If there is jealousy/spite in real life amongst mothers, it must be well hidden, as I personally haven’t come across it.
The only time I see it blatantly, is on MN.
Some of the comments on here are very vicious & petty.

An example I see often on mn is when every breastfeeding thread ends up being turned into something else. We can’t just have a nice simple thread saying ‘well done, keep it up’ or posters showing support in some way, it almost always ends up turning into a ff v bf debate with people getting upset/defensive/nasty.
No one I know is like that in real life.

So we’re not dissimilar to meerkats then.

I think we have the answer!

And the fathers?

Total bollox. Not all women are competitive. We all know from our own experiences how wonderful most women can be when it comes to supporting one another. Of course we all know the twats who are competitive and annoying, but it's not the majority.

I very rarely feel jealousy and I don't feel in competition with my friends. Im lucky to have great friends and I put a lot into those relationships. I stay away from people who are materialistic and this seems to help.

"It's not just mothers, I’ve long felt that one of the main reasons why we’re not as equal with men as we could be is that women do such a great job of pulling each other down."

Do we really though? I do think this is on a par with "women have shrill voices" and "women have no sense of humour"

You see it all the time on here. An OP can post about feeling insecure in comparison to X, but instead of encouraging OP to work on herself to become confident in her own right and quit comparing herself, plenty of posters will rip X apart for daring to have a good income/good looks/happy relationships.

People get really elaborate in their fantasies about how miserable/awful/unintelligent complete strangers must be.

This, exactly.

Entirely my experience from living in a naice middle class village. Also manifests itself in group othering - middle classes look down on the lower class/people who opt out of it, so they can feel superior.

Lots of house envy and school place envy - some are better than others but all it takes is a couple of people to really change the dynamics.

Not All Women

Because you don’t like it’s conclusion?

Is it that difficult to see the conclusion reached makes sense? Just look at social media - a reflection of what’s deep within the hearts and minds of people, who provide a nice veneer of respectability in person but deep down jealous and resentment reigns supreme.

That said, not all societies are like that. It is probably more a Western thing where cooperating on a deep level as a commune has not been part of the culture for centuries, if ever.

You clearly have no experience of the ultra competitive mothers of East Asian countries…

I saw that thread and felt sad for the OP. There was such a feeling of spite and envy from some posters and it's clear that there are (presumably) women on this board who enjoy taking other 'down a peg', warranted or not.

I don't experience people like this in real life either, I wouldn't choose to be around them. I also don't believe that mumsnet is an accurate representation or spectrum of women. It's like any other chatboard; women with time on their hands. Some have pockets of time, some have a lot or even too much. If that's a demographic then perhaps it explains the bitterness/envy. Who knows?

Of which this is a perfect example

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3N7F-5zNVFI

And this is seen in how they tear down women in the public eye who they know nothing about but will tell you how that person thinks, how much of a narcissist they are, etc. They use the vilest of sexist stereotypes. I never understand why women are so much more abusive to other women. It’s okay to have an opinion and criticise but the extreme ways some women behave is utterly frightening and it always betrays their deep insecurities.

I just don’t understand where they get the energy and brain space for all that junk thinking and behaviour.

Do you understand the difference between all, some, likelihood, etc? There will be competitiveness all over the world across all genders and races. Western societies are by their very construct and outlook, more competitive and individualistic. That is not to say you will find no such behaviour in other cultures.