To be outraged about fee-paying schools and social inequality?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I have a ds in Y11 who has been researching potential careers and degrees and it has brought home to me what a horribly unequal society we still have in this country. Apparently 70% of barristers went to public school and there are similar stats for other desirable non-stem roles like journalism and the civil service, as well as medicine. It's a bloody disgrace - what a joke for a supposedly modern society.

And it seems that certain schemes like blind recruitment might also feed into this as although going to Oxbridge might have become slightly more attainable recently thanks to contextual offers and an awareness that those institutions shouldn't be filled with people from certain schools, now blind recruitment means the advantage a state school student may have got from going there is pretty much cancelled out.

To me it seems that ds is most disadvantaged in a way as he wouldn't qualify for schemes aimed at people who are the first in their families to go to uni and we aren't in a deprived area, but he has none of the advantages that would have come from going to an independent school. Everything about us is just average!

He is very bright (predicted all 9s and got that in his mocks) and wants to achieve but it seems that the odds are against people like him having prestigious roles. Obviously when he is quoting these stats at me I'm telling him not to be defeatist and that he has every chance of doing something amazing as long as he keeps working hard, but inside I'm wondering if how true that is.

I've always been against fee-paying schools but him reeling off all these stats at me has just been sickening and yet when Labour make noises about doing something about it there's outrage when in my opinion there should be daily outrage about the current situation.

Can anyone who cares about fairness honestly say I'm BU?

I wonder this too really not seeing it. We all stage educated and achieved very well. My teens at a very good single sex state dd1 got string of 8s snd 9s and has nice sensible friends. Dd2 has befriended girls from the private schools they were all here yesterday. Zero difference between them. Maybe it’s area specific but here £18k pa per teen would be a waste of money,

State not stage!

It’s awful to have to compete on one’s merit and not be the most privileged kid.

Well the thread is about how merit is so often superseded by wealth but go ahead and think that that's how I feel about it if it makes you feel good.

ChristmasJumpers Yes, the student finance system is a disgrace. All it looks at is parental income and it ignores factors like outgoings/how many children there are etc. I'm pretty sure it hasn't been adjusted to take into account col crisis either.Also, it goes on the previous year's income, which was a nightmare for a student of mine whose previously well-paid parent had to give up work due to ill health the year the dd went to uni, Yet if you complain about it here people will pile on to tell you it's absolutely fine and either you should have been saving since the age of 21 to send your then hypothetical dc to uni and/or they are adults and it's up to them to get jobs to get through uni, followed by anecdata about dd who went to a top uni and worked 40 hours a week plus f/t in the holidays and it was a piece of piss and she still graduated top of her year. In reality it's really unfair and makes life difficult for many families.

Also, it goes on the previous year's income, which was a nightmare for a student of mine whose previously well-paid parent had to give up work due to ill health the year the dd went to uni

You can ask for an assessment on the current year's income if your income has dropped, so hopefully your student didn't miss out.

I do agree that the student finance system is deeply flawed, though.

I’m a single parent (widowed). Two children. One with SEN. Both at private prep school (one of the best in the country), both with generous bursaries.

Oldest is going to a private secondary school next year. It’s consistently top 10 in the country. He’s fiercely academic and it’s the right school for him. A mixed ability school absolutely won’t work as well for him.

Youngest gets a lot of 1:1 help for emotional/behavioural support. She is also fiercely academic and will hopefully join her brother at the same senior school (it has a great learning support department).

I sacrifice a huge amount to pay the (reduced) fees. They have a bursary based on my income but also on their potential, ability and contribution to the school (academic, music and games).

The system is unfair. So is life. My children miss out so much because they don’t have a dad. I compensate where I can, and giving them the best education is one way. The pastoral care at school is amazing.

I see so much nonsense being written about private schools. I’d pick a great state school over a crappy private school any day. And if my children were not highly academic, I would have 100% considered state primary. But their academic ability has been clear from the start (to schools, not just to me, their doting mum). They were both assessed (within the NHS) as part of a SEN report and both have IQs that put them in the top 0.1% of the population. They really do benefit from learning alongside other very bright children.

I’ve done a massive name change for this because I know some people will immediately jump on me.

I want the best opportunities for my children. Once they’re through school and university, they can do what they like. If they’re happy, that’s great. I don’t pile pressure on them to have high stress/profile/status careers. They are great just as they are. I also don’t expect (or particularly want!) them to go to Oxford or Cambridge.

OP, you touched a bit of a nerve with me. If you could see my bank statements you would not believe I could afford independent schools. And actually, if my children were not so bright, not musical and didn’t play sport, they almost definitely wouldn’t have the bursaries that make their school possible.

I will continue to hope for a more equal future for everyone, while giving my own children all the support I can.

Whilst we have a Royal Family this will continue. Because we pay for a set of people to have a privileged existence just because of what vagina they came out of.

Until that is knocked on the head, you'd be naive to think that there will ever be anything like equality in the UK.

@MyDarlingClementine I'm really sorry about the lack of school support for your SEN DD

The fact is they often fare better in small class sizes and schools for a couple of obvious reasons.

The attention they get and the lack of sheer noise and disruptions so important to mine who has ADHD and ASD.

My DD13 used to come home from her 30 kid in a class state primary absolutely shattered, frazzled and mentally broken.

3 years in a small private all girls school and she is thriving.

I won't apologise for doing something for her that my taxes should pay for I just wish all SEN kids had the same opportunity.

@jeaux90 completely understand

@Sailawaytocromer you sound bloody brilliant.

@Sailawaytocromer I'm a lone parent too. I won't apologise for sending my SEN DD to private school.

Sometimes treating everyone the same is the most unfair thing to do.

Completely get this and don't knock anyone for sending their children to private school. And having a SEN child too I might have considered if we could have afforded it. As I would have liked my dd to have similar opportunities of more support and smaller classes but work as much we like there is no way we could ever afford the fees - even if we never went on holiday ever again!

I think this is point for some who are opposed to private and grammar schools. Yes many middle classes can if they wanted afford the fees. But vast numbers of the population can never in a month of Sundays afford them. Why should the additional resources that private school get only be available for only the small 6% of the population that have the money (I read somewhere that was roughly the number who go to private school). And while many middle class 'bright' children might do well in the current state sector - what about all the OTHER children. It is interesting how these children are forgotten about in the debate. Imagine how much better less 'bright' children might do with all the additional resources - and how do we know they're not bright anyway - they may have just been neglected and then labelled by teachers as not bright. I know I certainly was labelled by teachers as not 'bright' at school because I too had an unrecognised SEN - which wasn't identified until many years after leaving school. As @MyDarlingClementine said teachers have no SEN training if any and many of these not so 'bright' many have SEN like I did but are just written off as not bright.

@Ladybowes @jeaux90 I agree with you both I guess my point is instead of focusing on grammars and private school, we should be looking at what we already have!
And improving that before smashing everything else.

Is Finland a communist country?

@Hawkins003 and also - is China a capitalist country?
you’re throwing around words you don’t understand at this point

I happen to agree with you on this - although it is a whole new thread. We are fed a line of line that we live in a meritocracy - which clearly isn't true when you have a system with a Monarchy. - we have a hereditary aristocracy - where social class has a massive impact on your life outcomes. But like I said that's a whole new thread.😂

Very important point.

I agree to an extent but if every school was done purely on local catchment area. And ALL children attended the local school.

They'd be a massive incentive for the people who run the country, MPs / MSPs etc to make sure that state schools were properly funded, teachers weren't over stretched. Reduced class sizes in every school. And support SEN kids in every school.

Yes you'll end up with some elite areas, with £££m houses, but if education is funded equally per head then it at least provides a more level playing field.

Yes I agree with this to an extend but the last decade has seen exactly the opposite to that in my opinion - a government smashing up the education system - albeit slowly over a decade. Our schools have no money - teachers are going on strike - SEND is terrible where you have to fight to get every last bit of support. Great big fat academy chains where state schools seem to be run like business at the expense of the staff and children. Sadly, I can't see it getting any better in the near future and still many children have terrible experiences of school which is awful. This may explain why we still have a massive persistent attendance problem across all our schools.

Does this really follow if you look to US?

Greater inequality than the U.K. and private / state school divide

@OP, I am involved in recruiting in the City (as in I make recruitment decisions for my employer, I am not a recruitment consultant). My own background is state school and Cambridge.

As you know, graduate scheme applications are institution blind now, so all we see is class of degree and degree subjects taken. However, when we did see more educational information I can honestly tell you that I didn't even bother looking the school up to see if it was state or independent. If it was a really well-known independent that might have registered but it would have had zero impact (positive or negative) on my recruitment decision. It would never have crossed my mind to give a job applicant extra credit for having got a degree after going to state school, even though I did that myself.

So I can honestly say that blind applications make zero difference to our selection compared to when we might have known that your DS was less privileged than Crispin from Eton.

That also holds true for the next level of application, at the still very junior second job type level. Those are just by standard CV so we do get school info and, frankly, it's just a waste of space on the sheet of paper. At that point to all we want to know is what they did in their last job.

I would also add that we have active social mobility apprentice schemes which are aimed specifically at people who have not got the standard entry level qualifications. Those are assessed (by algorithm) using a weighting system that gives credit if the school was particularly disadvantaged.

@Emotionalstorm did you not read the sentence that I don't think these skills are exclusive to Oxbridge? I went to Oxbridge too and I don't think I am smarter than a lot of people who studied elsewhere or some who didn't go to university at all. All I am saying is that the structure of Oxbridge helps build certain skills that employers value.

I know in education if you’ve been to Oxbridge many private schools would hired you on the spot and in fact will not consider a teacher who has attended a non red brick university as they still sadly call them. I have met many fantastic teachers who haven’t been to those universities but wouldn’t be interviewed just because that university isn’t on their CV! In education at least it’s a status thing sadly!

@Ladybowes I agree that being a good teacher has absolutely nothing to do with having an Oxbridge degree. Even passion for a specific subject is eclipsed by whether or not you can actually teach it. In my time I have met a number of brilliant mathematicians who have been woeful teachers.

BoojaBooj2 · Today 08:52
@Hawkins003 and also - is China a capitalist country?
you’re throwing around words you don’t understand at this point.

Hmm….. China calls itself communist, but it’s not really. More an authoritarian capitalist one and I’m not sure how that should be described.
There are certainly a lot of rich Chinese people - some of whom send their children to British public schools.

I think that's my point, really. Once you adjust for factors like family background and wealth etc, there really isn't much difference in outcomes. So what exactly is the added value, I wonder?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves for us it's essentially paying for nicer facilities and co-curricular opportunities, and a culture that celebrates being academically able. My own experience was being bullied and labelled a snob and a geek at my comprehensive, no music or drama and only minimal sport, with no teams that competed at all. It was miserable. I want my son to be happy at school, not just see it as a means to get the grades and find happiness later.