To be outraged about fee-paying schools and social inequality?

[coffeerevelsrule]

I have a ds in Y11 who has been researching potential careers and degrees and it has brought home to me what a horribly unequal society we still have in this country. Apparently 70% of barristers went to public school and there are similar stats for other desirable non-stem roles like journalism and the civil service, as well as medicine. It's a bloody disgrace - what a joke for a supposedly modern society.

And it seems that certain schemes like blind recruitment might also feed into this as although going to Oxbridge might have become slightly more attainable recently thanks to contextual offers and an awareness that those institutions shouldn't be filled with people from certain schools, now blind recruitment means the advantage a state school student may have got from going there is pretty much cancelled out.

To me it seems that ds is most disadvantaged in a way as he wouldn't qualify for schemes aimed at people who are the first in their families to go to uni and we aren't in a deprived area, but he has none of the advantages that would have come from going to an independent school. Everything about us is just average!

He is very bright (predicted all 9s and got that in his mocks) and wants to achieve but it seems that the odds are against people like him having prestigious roles. Obviously when he is quoting these stats at me I'm telling him not to be defeatist and that he has every chance of doing something amazing as long as he keeps working hard, but inside I'm wondering if how true that is.

I've always been against fee-paying schools but him reeling off all these stats at me has just been sickening and yet when Labour make noises about doing something about it there's outrage when in my opinion there should be daily outrage about the current situation.

Can anyone who cares about fairness honestly say I'm BU?

Other than barristers are other occupations dominated by privately educated children? Around 30% of doctors were privately educated, whilst 20% of students are privately educated for 6th form. So they are slightly over represented but not dominating. Very few children from disadvantaged backgrounds go into medicine. It is mostly the children of the middle class.

I'm not dismissing your personal experience at all, but equally, you are not the only person with direct experience of single sex education. I know some people who experienced that kind of education and swear by it. Equally, I know some people who experienced it and would rule it out for their children. So forgive me for not accepting your no doubt well informed opinion as gospel. Personally, I would like to see some proper research before reaching any conclusive view on the subject.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves there is much well documented proper research on single sex education being better for girls, particularly in the secondary years. It is easily accessible. Google is your friend.

Oooof 'google is your friend' has to be the most patronising phrase in the internet! I think @MrsBennetsPoorNerves probably wanted you to show her the particular reference to respond to, @TapestryTeddy
As you know, there's good and bad research out there, and you seem to know what's what!

This is true but with research in this area it often difficult to isolate the one factor that is causing girls to perform better in single sexed schools - yes people have theories but we actually don't know for sure if the fact there are no boys in the school is the factor the causes the girls to perform better.

This is why on the whole I don't have a problem with single sexed schools - but grammars and privates schools well yes they need to go in my opinion.

I'm familiar with the research about girls performing better in single sex schools, as I have already acknowledged. I am merely saying that I would like to see some research on the longer term social impacts of single sex education before arriving at any conclusions on this.

Believe it or not, I am not wedded to any particular position on this question - I am genuinely open-minded about it. I would just like to see more evidence regarding the long term impact, beyond the time when children are actually at school. I'm sorry if this annoys you but I don't think it is an unreasonable position to hold.

As for Google being my friend....well, I found various research papers on the subject, but nothing very conclusive. One paper stated that women who had been to single sex schools were more confident than girls who had attended co-ed schools. One stated that people who had attended single sex schools tend to hold more sexist views and accept gender stereotypes more readily. A few stated that people who had attended single sex schools were more likely to feel anxious in mixed sex environments. One stated that there was no observable difference between those who had attended single sex vs co-ed schools other than an increased risk of divorce for men at age 42! One literature review stated that two thirds of the research found no real impact in either direction. And a few other papers cast doubt on the validity of the studies that had apparently shown that girls perform better in single sex environments. So all in all, a very mixed picture and I would have to spend a lot more time reading and evaluating sources in order to reach an informed opinion.

Ah well @faffadoodledo at least you are acknowledging that I do know what I am talking about rather than giving me your idiot's guide to widening participation as you were earlier. Almost thirty years teaching in schools across the spectrum has given me some insight. The 'google is your friend' response is what I consider an apt reponse to the patronising tone of 'So forgive me for not accepting your no doubt well informed opinion as gospel'. Well spotted Sherlock! Oh and @MrsBennetsPoorNerves can find her own statistics.

I agree with your comments. This is why we will be sending out daughter to private school when the time comes. Unfortunately unless your parents are on benefits or you are ethnic minority the system very much works against you if you go to a comprehensive school.

Gosh @TapestryTeddy that's a pretty nasty response! Just trying to winkle out the precise studies you have in mind. As I said, there's a lot out there and perhaps you could point people to the best. Blimey! You're the one making the assertions about single sex (which by the way I haven't disputed), so do please share.

@Sugarfree23.. You have conflated two issues there... One saying private school " children". Have more confidence.

Oopp and distracted in the classroom. They are not inter related. No school can just ask dc not to come back. It's all a process whenever they are.

If someone can afford private education it says firstly that they think it's worth it. So you have a parent who values education.
They may or may not have money for anything else or have these amazing contacts bit the bottom line is... I think education is special.

So that's a pretty good base line to start with.
A school can't infuse children with confidence either. But if your parent can't read and is unsure that may play into the child.

What have benefits and ethnic minorities got to do with any of this? I don't understand.

Well, I have just spent a very interesting half hour or so reading up on the research around single sex education. The more I read, the less clear cut it seems to be. The research isn't conclusively in favour of single sex education or against it as far as I can see.

@jeaux90

Many parents have the luxery of choice.

One of my dd has mild sen that her outstanding state primary couldn't cope with. She couldn't get read nor count by year 4.

We had been told by utterly clueless teachers to "wait and it will come". In the true meaning of the word teachers are mainly absolutely clueless as to any sen. They don't know anything about the basics!
My own journey with my dd has taught me that even the smallest deviations from the norm can't be coped with in state school.

I had to pay for private specially sen tutors and with the smallest teeniest tweaks she was learning within a short space of time and able to access the curriculum.

@jeaux90.
I'm terrified about having to send her to the state comp.

It's supposed to be outstanding but is noitourusly bad at helping any dc with sen. No matter how mild..
If I could pay private I know one thing.

I can hold them to account.

Exactly what I have been saying. Sociologist's have spent decades debating this... I remember looking at this many many years ago when I did A level Sociology and not much has changed surrounding this debate. Interesting it certainly is and you can find research to support either side of the debate.

@Staffielove23 Ahh.. spoken like a true private school parent. You even got the antidote in there. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps folks and spoke moaning about imaginary glass and class ceilings 🙄

That was all you got from my post which mentioned analysing stats, having supportive families etc?
Spoken like someone who has no idea of what class my family came from but felt free to make spurious assumptions.🙄

I had a similar experience with my dd. She is dyslexic and the outstanding primary school had no idea - just said she was cognitively impaired - to say I was very cross is an understatement.

Absolutely agree regarding anything that deviates from the 'norm'. They could not support her and we had pay for extra support ourselves - lucky we had the money not everyone does. And this is what makes me cross - what about all those who haven't got the money to help their children.

@coffeerevelsrule

Start to ask your son to research dc with basic sen and how many dc leave primary unable to read. Then look at how many illiterate people end up in prison.

That's your inequality right there.

Many don't need funding to learn how to read or expensive anything. They just need a flexible system that allows for reading to be taught in many ways if one way isn't working.
That's the inequality gap.

If a child can't read by year 4 they are probably already feeling naturally excluded from daily school life and pretty rubbish. Which then affects how they seem themselves and leads into many other issues..

@Ladybowes

Same and it makes me furious also.

How many dc like my dc just needed small tweaks eg a different way other than phonics to learn to read.

But I know of people with these skills working in state primary and the head won't allow their skills to be used.

I went to private school and have worked in a long line of poorly paying roles. Sadly, my experience put me off the rich set.

I know it nuts! I had to fight the school to get extra support in school - which I did eventually get - but I still think the biggest difference was the one to one dyslexic specialist we paid for. Much of the help my dd was given in school was by parent helpers who are great but simply aren't trained.

I always thought it odd that teaching assistants took the children who needed extra support and or struggling - why not the teacher who supposedly has all the training? I am not saying teaching assistants aren't trained but in my experience they weren't train to deal with my dd's dyslexia. We were lucky enough to be able to pay for a private assessment - so knew exactly what the barriers to learning were. She is now in secondary school and thriving. But had I not had the money or the ability to fight the school the situation might be considerably different.

Same experience here.
The OP’s son is at an advantage in life, it’s really over the top for her to say she is ‘outraged’.
She should be very happy- her son should be told he couldn’t do any better than he is right now. He’s not a kid that would have gained anything extra from private school. Kids that struggle will gain the most.

The OP should be very pleased, not outraged, for goodness sake!

It is true that there is a lot of conflicting information out there on single sex education. As I see it, there are two angles to this and this is where a lot of studies get a bit bogged down. There is the academic angle and there is clear evidence in many studies that single sex educated girls do much better in maths, science and STEM overall and they are more likely to go on to pursue those areas at university. This aspect is more clear cut. The social aspect is more qualitative, subjective and ambiguous and in my humble opinion it very much depends on the girl and the wider cohort. In a supportive environment girls can do brilliantly socially. The flip side is that in a co-ed environment the presence of boys can diffuse the sometimes competitive cliquey-ness (if that is a word) of girls which can be quite damaging to some. So I do agree that the jury is a bit out in that respect. However, I have worked more recently with ethnic minority girls in single sex selective schools and I do believe that for them, particularly where there is a cultural background of female subjugation, single sex education can be a real game changer and that environment can really can blow open their world and help them to challenge convention. It is hard to explain but I think the essence is that they just have a blank canvas to be themselves and that outlet combined with a realisation of their own intelligence can be very powerful for them. I have also worked with girls of similar background in a co-ed environment and I did get a sense of them being more introverted and less aspirational. I know they still have to tackle the world and that is certainly co-ed but it still seems to be a really useful stepping stone in their journey.

But then how would you create or enforce an equal society, even if all schools were the same type, small classes ect, due to humans being humans, based on how we learn and how some will want to learn vs coasting on their studies ect.
There will always be some that fail the grades, some that need improvement, and some that will be the next Einstein's, etc.
Then outside the classrooms, as their are no private schools ect then you will have personal tutors, extra classes at private venues, some using YouTube or Google to learn more.

In theory an equal society seems quite the utopia, but in practice how would it be achieved and even then based on human nature itself how could it even be maintained to make sure some of society did not do better than other parts of society ?