Page 13 | To be outraged about fee-paying schools and social inequality?

coffeerevelsrule · 2023-04-10T15:45:23+00:00

I have a ds in Y11 who has been researching potential careers and degrees and it has brought home to me what a horribly unequal society we still have in this country. Apparently 70% of barristers went to public school and there are similar stats for other desirable non-stem roles like journalism and the civil service, as well as medicine. It's a bloody disgrace - what a joke for a supposedly modern society. And it seems that certain schemes like blind recruitment might also feed into this as although going to Oxbridge might have become slightly more attainable recently thanks to contextual offers and an awareness that those institutions shouldn't be filled with people from certain schools, now blind recruitment means the advantage a state school student may have got from going there is pretty much cancelled out. To me it seems that ds is most disadvantaged in a way as he wouldn't qualify for schemes aimed at people who are the first in their families to go to uni and we aren't in a deprived area, but he has none of the advantages that would have come from going to an independent school. Everything about us is just average! He is very bright (predicted all 9s and got that in his mocks) and wants to achieve but it seems that the odds are against people like him having prestigious roles. Obviously when he is quoting these stats at me I'm telling him not to be defeatist and that he has every chance of doing something amazing as long as he keeps working hard, but inside I'm wondering if how true that is. I've always been against fee-paying schools but him reeling off all these stats at me has just been sickening and yet when Labour make noises about doing something about it there's outrage when in my opinion there should be daily outrage about the current situation. Can anyone who cares about fairness honestly say I'm BU?

Andante57 · 11/04/2023 15:32

Sorry, I didn’t mean to include that photo and link from the Guardian - not sure what happened there

Ladybowes · 11/04/2023 15:33

BoojaBooj2 · 11/04/2023 14:47

You can’t have free university and unselective admissions at the same time. During your time fewer went. And in the supposed free/cheap uni European countries students have to pass very tough exams. Every student has a viva.
Compared to the U.K. where the curriculum varies wildly and is extremely watered down in some institutions.

Also currently you still get the money to go - it just has to be repaid, and even then if you earn a certain amount (although I agree the interest is horrendous and the threshold frozen). And actually the ‘squeezed middle’ are the ones who lose out if their parents can’t top up as much as the gov expects.

There’s also the option of getting ‘a degree’ part-time or via distance learning. More open and easier for people who don’t want to or couldn’t go to a 3 year uni. Foundation years etc as well, many routes.

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The point is though it is not free.. I know people don't like this suggestion but we should pay more in taxes in my opinion. Also it is clearly a choice what the government wants to spend money on - as they can find the money when they wish.. COVID has taught us all this.

It is true more do go now and I also believe that university is not for everyone and encouraging everyone to go is a terrible mistake. It has also had an impact on the value of a degree also from what I have seen - although I haven't read any evidence about this - anecdotally it seems so many graduates are unemployed and struggle to get work and end up doing jobs that don't required a degree sometimes at the expense of other job seekers.

ExpatInSlavikLand · 11/04/2023 15:34

Some people are born to money. Some are born to no money at all. Some are born to just about enough money.

None of the above truly means that they are going to be a success or a relative failure in life. My own wider family certainly attests to that over the last three generations.

If a child does well in school and gets into a good university and continues to study and work hard, he or she will already be halfway there.

If he or she does very little to further themselves, they won't find themselves going very far in life, no matter how much money their parents have.

Ladybowes · 11/04/2023 15:37

Andante57 · 11/04/2023 15:30

I would happily pay more tax now to ensure other people have the same opportunities I was given thanks to the tax payer.

LadyBowes you can pay more tax if you want to. This is from The Guardian:

Susan Reynolds (Letters, 28 September) says: “I want to pay more tax for the public services I enjoy.” She might be relieved to know that she may do so simply by sending a cheque to HMRC. I understand that you can even specify where you would like to see that money spent

Are you going to pay more tax now you know that it’s possible?

How do you know I don't already do this...actually the tax system is another thread altogether.. best not to get me start as massive reform needed there too!!😂

Andante57 · 11/04/2023 15:42

How do you know I don't already do this

LadyBowes. Because if you did presumably you would have said ‘I do happily pay more tax’ rather than ‘I would happily pay more tax’.

Staffielove23 · 11/04/2023 15:45

logicisall · 10/04/2023 17:22

YABVU. My friend is a divorced single mother who went to uni as a mature student. She had to get a pupillage in another city as she couldn't get one where she lived, but was fortunate in having a dm who helped look after her dc. It was a struggle with low pay initially but she ended up with her own practice and recently retired with several millions in assets.

Just quoting stats is a nonsense unless you analyse them too.
You should also look at the degrees with the highest paid jobs - IT and Engineering figure prominently.

I sent my dc to independent schools because we lived in a rural area and the nearest state school was a failing one. We gave up a lot to afford the fees. One dc is in a highly paid job while the other decided to do something creative that they enjoy but isn't particularly well paid.

Stop blaming independent schools for inequality. We are not all born with equal abilities or equally supportive annd interested families. Prestige and money isn't everything in life.

Ahh.. spoken like a true private school parent. You even got the antidote in there. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps folks and spoke moaning about imaginary glass and class ceilings 🙄

3WildOnes · 11/04/2023 15:46

Sugarfree23 · 11/04/2023 14:56

It makes a whole lot more sense for the cream to go to Uni and be funded.

I actually struggle to see why young brainy people would want to become Doctors, 5 years BSc, and about another 3 years Doctorate 8 years of study and debts before they earn a penny.

Why not become a dentist in 5 years and then earn a shed load of money.

Far to many leave Uni with degrees that don't really mean anything that a few years ago the people who did those jobs only had a couple of years at college and a whole lot less debt.
Half of all graduate jobs are non-degree specific - they just want people who have shown a bit of sticking power and can work on their own

Medical doctors don't do a three year doctorate on top of their 5 year BSc?! Well they might if they want to go into research or academia but normally no. After 5 years they are qualified and wprk their two foundation years across varies specialities, they are earning during this period (though not a whole lot!).

Ladybowes · 11/04/2023 15:51

Andante57 · 11/04/2023 15:42

How do you know I don't already do this

LadyBowes. Because if you did presumably you would have said ‘I do happily pay more tax’ rather than ‘I would happily pay more tax’.

Of course you’re right. And maybe it’s something I might consider but I guess you’re missing the point of my posts. I would argue the whole tax system needs reform but I guess too many don’t want to share the wealth out. We sadly seem to live in I’m alright Jack society.. so leave it alone.

Staffielove23 · 11/04/2023 15:51

Private schools are absolutely a paramount contributiory factor towards societal inequalities. All of this life isn’t fair nonsense is just something spouted by those at the upper end of the rung. We need a complete overhaul of the system.

Ladybowes · 11/04/2023 15:54

Staffielove23 · 11/04/2023 15:51

Private schools are absolutely a paramount contributiory factor towards societal inequalities. All of this life isn’t fair nonsense is just something spouted by those at the upper end of the rung. We need a complete overhaul of the system.

100% with you on this!!

MyDarlingClementine · 11/04/2023 15:56

I don't understand, having a blind application process now disadvantages him? How??

Barristers coming from a certain type of schools is a red herring.

Becoming a barrister costs a lot of money that's all it's reflective of and obviously having attended a private schools implies there is money there already in the family. This means they can then afford the further fees to become a barrister.
. Barristers are however or can be very poorly paid

MyDarlingClementine · 11/04/2023 15:59

I can't see how any inequalities can be ironed until all dc are taught together in the same room. All sen, all neuro diversity along with everyone else.

But surely that would disadvantage those that need more help and those that dont.

But how is it fair to stream in a comp meaning the top performers have little to do with those in bottom sets anyway.

Tarantullah · 11/04/2023 16:03

Staffielove23 · 11/04/2023 15:51

Private schools are absolutely a paramount contributiory factor towards societal inequalities. All of this life isn’t fair nonsense is just something spouted by those at the upper end of the rung. We need a complete overhaul of the system.

I doubt many people saying it are near the top rung, but they realise opportunity is more than what school you went to. Someone from generational wealth will always have better opportunities regardless of what school they go to, I don't think taking away people's money would be a vote winner. I grew up on a council estate and no one in my extended family had ever been to university, things have changed leaps and bounds since then in terms of social mobility; whilst not perfect things are heading in the right direction.

Ladybowes · 11/04/2023 16:08

MyDarlingClementine · 11/04/2023 15:59

I can't see how any inequalities can be ironed until all dc are taught together in the same room. All sen, all neuro diversity along with everyone else.

But surely that would disadvantage those that need more help and those that dont.

But how is it fair to stream in a comp meaning the top performers have little to do with those in bottom sets anyway.

Level up isn’t about everyone getting the same. As someone who is neurodivergent I get extra time in exams.. if I ever did them again this levels the playing field.

like I said equality does not = the same.

3WildOnes · 11/04/2023 16:10

Staffielove23 · 11/04/2023 15:51

Private schools are absolutely a paramount contributiory factor towards societal inequalities. All of this life isn’t fair nonsense is just something spouted by those at the upper end of the rung. We need a complete overhaul of the system.

I really don't think it makes that much difference. Wealthy middle class children tend to out perform their peers when in state school too.

MyDarlingClementine · 11/04/2023 16:12

@Ladybowes

Yes but whilst of course you or anyone else with a need gets extra time ( my dd does) it doesn't help with other inequality people are facing.

Staffielove23 · 11/04/2023 16:31

MyDarlingClementine · 11/04/2023 15:59

I can't see how any inequalities can be ironed until all dc are taught together in the same room. All sen, all neuro diversity along with everyone else.

But surely that would disadvantage those that need more help and those that dont.

But how is it fair to stream in a comp meaning the top performers have little to do with those in bottom sets anyway.

You’re confusing equality of opportunity with treating everyone exactly the same.

Sugarfree23 · 11/04/2023 16:33

3WildOnes · 11/04/2023 16:10

I really don't think it makes that much difference. Wealthy middle class children tend to out perform their peers when in state school too.

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A lots of that will be having private tutoring as well as school.

But it's also a known factor that some of the top state schools also have the biggest drop outs of kids not getting into 2nd year at Uni.
Tutored their way through school and fall fall when left to own devices.

TapestryTeddy · 11/04/2023 16:40

@Sugarfree23 you are talking nonsense. DC from the top selective state schools tend to outperform other segments once at university. They have not been spoon-fed, they have thrived in classes of thirty and the vast majority have not been tutored through secondary school. Where are you getting this information from?

faffadoodledo · 11/04/2023 16:44

What, @Sugarfree23, do you mean tutoring only happens in state schools? Honestly this is a worn out old MN trope. My kids went to a state school and I can tell you tutoring was not common (mine never had any and nor did their friends). And let's be honest, some kids (I know a few) went private and had tutoring. There seems to be a widespread misconception that tutoring in state schools is common or only happens in that sector.
As for your assertion about state school drop outs from university - figures please?

Staffielove23 · 11/04/2023 17:08

3WildOnes · 11/04/2023 16:10

I really don't think it makes that much difference. Wealthy middle class children tend to out perform their peers when in state school too.

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Then why are certain occupations dominated by private schooled children and not wealthy middle class state schooled children?

TapestryTeddy · 11/04/2023 17:10

And which occupations would those be @Staffielove23 ?

BoojaBooj2 · 11/04/2023 17:10

Ladybowes · 11/04/2023 15:51

Of course you’re right. And maybe it’s something I might consider but I guess you’re missing the point of my posts. I would argue the whole tax system needs reform but I guess too many don’t want to share the wealth out. We sadly seem to live in I’m alright Jack society.. so leave it alone.

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I don’t think people don’t ‘want to share’ the wealth. They’re just not confident that the government will actually give them stuff instead of spanking it up the wall. Regardless their billionaire mates aren’t really going to pay more anyway are they?

We also have an ageing population.

As a young person I’m happy to pay more tax if I’d get better services. But as I see it the moneys probably going to disappear and I’ll still be told to pay for things ‘because I can afford it’, with no provision in my old age.

Tragedy of the commons…

3WildOnes · 11/04/2023 17:19

Sugarfree23 · 11/04/2023 16:33

A lots of that will be having private tutoring as well as school.

But it's also a known factor that some of the top state schools also have the biggest drop outs of kids not getting into 2nd year at Uni.
Tutored their way through school and fall fall when left to own devices.

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I dont think that is true but feel free to share any research you have.

Ladybowes · 11/04/2023 17:19

BoojaBooj2 · 11/04/2023 17:10

I don’t think people don’t ‘want to share’ the wealth. They’re just not confident that the government will actually give them stuff instead of spanking it up the wall. Regardless their billionaire mates aren’t really going to pay more anyway are they?

We also have an ageing population.

As a young person I’m happy to pay more tax if I’d get better services. But as I see it the moneys probably going to disappear and I’ll still be told to pay for things ‘because I can afford it’, with no provision in my old age.

Tragedy of the commons…

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You’re probably right about the lack of trust regarding our government and the political system. My parents are baby boomers and yes currently have an ageing population but that won’t last forever - this is why we are being made to work longer for less.. the government knows there are fewer people to pay into the pension pots.. and if I was cynical, I might think they wanted us to die before we could claim our pensions…