Why so anti drag?

[nicetoseetgesunsout]

I've just watched the Paul oGrady tribute programme and it brought me to tears.
He did so much for children and their families and for so so many animals, plus against social injustice for gay people and anti section 28, not being scared to raise its injustice on mainstream tv.
My 75yr old mum is very upset about his passing.
Why the hate for drag performers?
My children grew up with Boy George,Marilyn and Leigh Bowrie RIP as they are friends. My children (boy and girl, now a woman and a man) always knew that they were, and are, men and saw them without costume wigs and makeup.
I'm also friends with a married couple who were drag queens a long time ago. My children have always known that these guys are men, dressing up as women, as they liked to and it was entertainment.
No offence meant to women. They saw them dressed as their drag persona but also without costume and mostly as men.
One couple of ex drag queens I know are now a Director for a hospice and his husband is a social work manager. Reputable jobs, no desire to be women and have two cats who are their babies. Lovely men.
Pantos have always had men playing women but we all know that they're men. Shakespeare plays had men playing women - that's more offensive to me.
Female authors like SE Sinton wrote and published amazing books without her obviously female first names - as she couldn't get published otherwise. These upset me much more

Not RTFT.
Whether we appreciate Drag as humour or not, I'm sure we'd all agree that Drag doesn't belong in story time.

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/100829/3/AcceptedManuscripttGayMisogynyyHale_Ojeda.pdf

Gay people can be mysogenistic and the mysogeny is often overlooked just because they are gay

I've always hated men dressing up and mocking women. Even as a young child.

Plus it's talentless and shit in the main. Vile. Fat men dressed as a parody of a woman lip synching to music. Urgh. You couldn't pay me to watch it.

I do think we often forget that gay men are still men. Often with the same mind set and privileges that all men have.

Yep.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2017/08/02/paul-ogrady-cant-stand-rupauls-drag-race-its-not-drag-its-transvestism/

@JaninaDuszejko "Womanface. It's misogynistic and sexist."

You clearly don't understand the history of drag and the representation within the LGBT community.

@CurlewKate "I do think we often forget that gay men are still men. Often with the same mind set and privileges that all men have."

Ludicrous take. I don't think you realise the level of hostility and oppression gay people suffered even into the 2000s. I am not out at work because I don't want it impacting my prospects.

@Botw1

My brain seems to accept a man playing a female character (like Mrs brown/doubtfire/savage/everage) as being ok but not the more modern ru Paul types and I'm not really sure why.

Society wouldn't accept a white person playing a black or Asian character. Christ, it wouldn't even accept a non trans person playing a trans character these days

So why is a man playing a woman acceptable?

I don't have a fully formed answer for this but here are my incomplete thoughts:

I think society had a backlash against white people playing BAME characters because BAME actors/tresses exist, and paying a white person to do the job rather than a person of the correct ethnic origin who was already at a disadvantage due to structural racism was acknowledged to be an obviously shit thing to do.

I do think it's a little different in the case of men playing women (sincerely) because women ARE usually employed to play female roles. I do think that both sexes can play the opposite in a way that is tasteful, sympathetic and not offensive, and that to see this DONE WELL adds variety and interest.

Whether a man playing a woman is offensive or not - well to set aside the bigger "is it always offensive" question for a moment, to me it's about whether the character is created for poking fun at women. Most drag acts are created like a trope of a woman, hyper-exaggerated features, to poke fun at women, at women's expense.

Mrs Brown was successful because she was a mildly exaggerated character, I think. I think if a woman had've played her, people may have found it too uncanny valley - whereas a man playing her promoted us to suspend disbelief and relax into enjoying the ridiculousness.

Everage - I found her too exaggerated for me to enjoy most of the time, but it's interesting that a lot of the less problematic characters are older women, isn't it.

Savage - Again, too exaggerated looks-wise for me, but at least the character was a comedian who was actually funny and not taking the piss out of women.

Doubtfire - again, an older female character, and the premise was clear - it was a male - the father - who was trying to get access to his own children. Of course it's the premise that hasn't aged well, 30 years later! But I think Doubtfire trod the line of exaggerated, but only slightly, and not at the expense of women, rule.

Curious to hear your thoughts if you have any?

Just because gay men have suffered oppression does not justify them dishing it out

Just because it's "part of their history" doesn't make it right either

Morris men have a history of blacking up which they don't do now even though their blacking up is completely unrelated to things like black and white minstrels

@Burgoo
And yet there are female members of the LGBT community here telling you that we find it offensive.

@Burgoo

Gay men who aren't out have all the privilege of straight men

It's homophobia but women can't avoid sexism

@ThereIbledit

Yes, I think them being older might be the difference but I dint know why that should be the case!

This is a strange, muddled argument. Of course there is nothing demeaning about being black, but there is something highly demeaning in black face. The argument is exactly the same for women.

There is misogyny in drag. There is misogyny outside of drag. Victoria Scone is a Drag Queen and is female. There are Drag Kings. There are male Drag Queens like Cheddar Gorgeous who look stunning in artistic outfits that are nothing like a traditional female look. I do get frustrated with those who have a blanket hatred of all drag, whilst agreeing that people in any sort of sexualised outfit should not be reading stories to children.

I don’t buy the argument that is ok because it’s mostly gay men and they’re oppressed. They are, but not, as a class, by women (although obv in a lot of individual cases). If they were mocking straight people, this is punching up. Drag is about mocking a group of people who are oppressed in the way they are not, so not ok.

I always found drag terrifying as a child (Danny La Rue was one of the most well known, but pantomime dames were equally terrifying). I still feel deeply uncomfortable with men pretending to be women and using stereotypes to do so.

I liked POG after he dropped Lily Savage and became an out gay man instead.

Some people just don't like drag, I'm one of them.

@mynameisnotkate Exactly. You are making my point! Sorry if it was me clear I was quoting someone.

@goodf you have completely misunderstood my post. I'm saying that men wearing stereotypically feminine clothes is absolutely fine. I gave the examples of past Eddie Izzard and the New Romantics. Men claiming to be women (transwomen) or parodying them (drag acts) is not.

No I think i understood you perfectly. We just disagree.

xx

Loved Lily Savage.

There’s an Irish “national treasure” who calls himself “Panti Bliss”. I find that name utterly grim, for some reason.

Yet I still think Cupid Stunt was hilarious.

I guess people who grow up with all the benefits and shaped-attitudes of being a man, who then claim they are women to get even more special status, while bio
women are shit on for getting/needing/having the same needs just winds me up now. I used to howl with laughter at Eddie izzard, now he comes across as a precious narcissist, much like all the drag acts these days.

I believe people should live and express themselves as they like without fear or threat, but that means making male spaces safer for non gender conforming individuals, not changing the whole of society and female spaces to suit some tantruming egos who say do it my way or I’ll kill myself or you. Just no.

@Burgoo "Ludicrous take. I don't think you realise the level of hostility and oppression gay people suffered even into the 2000s. I am not out at work because I don't want it impacting my prospects." Yep. You can use male privilege when it suits you. Lucky you. Incidentally- how involved were you in the gay rights campaigns in the 1970s?

I think the difference with drag now is that it is overtly sexual and politicised again, whereas Danny La Roux and Paul O'Grady were purely entertainment
driven and were not claiming to represent womanhood, but rather characters we could all recognise.

@CurlewKate oops, sorry, obv didn’t read that properly!

I saw quite a lot of drag acts when I was going to clubs from late 80s to early 2000s - found many of them crude and misogynistic (including Paul O'G) which put me off somewhat. Drag acts on TV are far more sanitised - but it reminds me of club acts, and generally I don't appreciate, like or find it remotely funny.
I had a number of friends friends that did drag & generally found that less offensive.
I now have a number of friends that are trans, several non binary - so it's definitely not an anti trans thing.