Did the UK peak in 2012? Will Britain ever be great again?

[verdantverdure]

In 2012 I had a baby, things seemed optimistic, and I was proud of my country. I'd never even heard of "food banks"

Now everything in this country seems shit, and on a downward trajectory to get worse.

And I haven't even watched Wild Isles episode 6 yet.

What do you think?

Can we pull it back in this country or are we in terminal decline?

YABU Whatchoo talking' about Willis?! Everything is FANTASTIC! Never better.

YANBU We've never had it so bad, and it's probably up to us to make it better.

History shows that prosperity and austerity fluctuates. I’ve already lived through several recessions - 1990, 2008, pandemic etc.

The economy didn't really recover from 08 though...

This is the worst economic time I’ve ever lived through. And I lived through the strikes in the 80s where the government dismantled heavy industry and mining etc, and left ex-industrial communities bereft and in poverty with no employment. But at least we weren’t at risk of nuclear war, we had freely available medical and dental care, and reliable benefits for those who couldn’t find work.

Unfortunately we are in a period of managed decline that people have generally voted for over the last decade.

Unfortunately people these days don't seem to vote positively or with a social conscious. It's more for emotional reasons like Boris being better to have a pint with or because of sovereignty or because they like having a class system rather than social justice, etc.

I'm in my late 60s and I also remember 2012 as being a good year full of optimism.

We definitely were at risk of nuclear war in the early 80s.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/80s-bomb-putin-teenagers-armageddon-pandemic-climate-crisis

I think it peaked in 2000/2001 pre 9/11. The 90s had been relatively peaceful, people were happier (nights out/pop culture,) mobile phones/Internet weren't big and social media wasn't yet invented. Although not a labour fan myself, people were happy and optimistic that they won the election in 97. House prices were OK and fairly affordable, kids weren't quite being helicoptered yet so had more freedom and didn't have the results driven pressure to achieve like now. You could still get a good job or work your way up from the bottom without needing a degree.

Never mind , OP , at least we haven’t got criminal gangs fighting with sub machine guns and grenades as in Sweden or fanatics cutting the throats of priests and worshippers and burning down cathedrals as in France.

There was an unusual ( for UK) sense of pride and patriotism in 2012. The Olympics and jubilee buoyed everyone up, it was a great year.
I do remember there bring a lot of sniping about the Olympics before it happened, the usual waste of money moans etc
But everyone got behind it when it arrived and it was fab, as was the jubilee, lots to celebrate which made everyone feel good, proud to be British and optimistic about the future.
Sadly short lived euphoria. Us Brits do like a moan!

I think we need to take a longer view. UK never really recovered after the loss of empire. I'd put the start of the decline at 1945.

History moves in big cycles although when we're in it we can only see the smaller ones. The age of Western Europe lasted approximately 1453 - 1918. UK had a bit longer because of the empire. Since then we've been on the way down and it's Asia's turn now. Which is fine and cool. Human civilisation is like that.

I think we are in a steep decline. It started with the coalition government of 2010 and got massively worse from 2016 onwards.

I don't see things getting better any time soon, with spiralling costs of living, fuel uncertainty and climate crisis adding to the self-inflicted catastrophe of Brexit. I'm very worried about the future.

I agree with you, Mavis: "We Brits just can’t have nice things, we’re careless and don’t look after them."
Coming from the continent, so not technically a part of the 'we', but having lived here for 30 years, I feel as if there is something in this. It's as if the British have been dissuaded of the idea of the 'greater good'. The notion of collectivism in even its most watered down forms, and however beneficial to society at large, are treated with suspicion and ridicule. People seem to hate the idea that someone, somewhere might 'get one over' on them or get something 'for free'. So people would rather not support ideas which will benefit the many, if there is the slightest chance that a few, undeserving people will get a free ride. This only applies to the hoi polloi; the 'few' who get a free ride in the upper echelons of society are aspired to.
Lots of British working class people seem to have little affinity with their working class roots and do not percieve themselves as part of a greater class analysis; so many who are really struggling or live in disadvantaged communities vote Conservative, like it's somehow aspirational or like it says something about them not needing anything from anyone, snd as if 'fighting for something' is slightly embarrassing and cringeworthy. Political activism for the sake of preserving and supporting public services is not a given: there is so much online hate for current strike action among public servants.
Brits who take an interest in European politics often laugh at Scandi or northern European politicians, poking fun at their steadiness and 'wooden' delivery, making out they're dull and slow. I'm sure this is because Brits have been slowly conditioned to expect a more populist approach in the political arena, which is a pity.

Hard to disagree with this. And also @GudiBrallan 's long post.

People seem to hate the idea that someone, somewhere might 'get one over' on them or get something 'for free'. So people would rather not support ideas which will benefit the many, if there is the slightest chance that a few, undeserving people will get a free ride.
People don’t fully understand social dynamics then. Keeping the country safe and the crime rate low isn’t just about funding the police. It’s also about making sure that the people at the bottom of the pile have access to a basic level of public services and safety net so they don’t riot or commit crimes. If people are hungry they will shoplift food. If their child is in pain they will get the money to help them somehow. Essential public services are aimed at saving people from acting in desperation.

People seem to hate the idea that someone, somewhere might 'get one over' on them or get something 'for free'.

I agree with this. I've heard relatives moaning about paying for care etc because 'x' doesn't have to pay etc

Well exactly, but people don't connect the dots!

More of a decline since late 90s!

Yes, Britain is increasingly going to be sidelined if it continues to insist on its exceptionality and acting as though it's in the early part of the last century where countries 'wave their willies' rather than cooperate as part of a whole.

Things were positive 2010-12 when my kids were born. Far worse now

Firstly, there's a major land war going on in Europe which is impacting things hugely. We also had COVID which impacted the world in a way not seen in recent history and we had Brexit which is still having an impact. As a consequence of that, things are a bit difficult at the moment, but they are still better than they have been in the past. I remember the 70's and they were not pleasant at all... especially as my parents bought me flared trousers.

Personally, considering everything that is going on in the world, I think the UK is doing pretty good and according to the figures, the majority of the world is having a worse time. I'd encourage less media use and you might find you think the world isn't as bad as the news wants us to believe it is.

I think Thatcher and her 'there's no such thing as society' ushered in this 'I'm all right Jack and sod everyone else' attitude I'm not pretending that the 70s was paradise but there was a feeling that things were getting better and the welfare state was there to take care of the poorest/sickest.
The labeling of entire chunks of the population as workshy scroungers has turned people against each other. Plus the media always has someone to blame, be it single mothers, the unemployed or immigrants.
Rupert Murdoch's stranglehold on British Media has not helped.

i'm pretty sure most understand there are peaks & troughs but things just seem less hopeful because it doesn't feel like things will improve.

We've got too many people that we can't support now so it's the sweatshop/slum/workhouse via chronic overpopulation / deregulation economic model from now on that's been chosen instead of a low-population / hi-tech one.

You won't be getting your state pensions, so if you're under 40 if I were you I'd be looking at leaving, or at least encouraging your kids to emigrate.

You're not the only person contemplating whether things in the west have peaked.

A number of factors all came together and gave us all a very prosperous time over the past so many decades, but they are going backwards.

eg we used to have a good ratio of young to old - that gets a lot of things done. Less so when the ratio goes the other way, as looking after the old ties up a lot of young - so they aren't free to do other work.

eg Abundant dense energy like oil and gas - more and more in the world are wanting some of that too, so prices rise - other reasons too.

That's just for starters.

There are various commentators out there considering the future of the world from various angles. None of it will be welcome round here, so I'll keep my counsel.

People seem to hate the idea that someone, somewhere might 'get one over' on them or get something 'for free'. So people would rather not support ideas which will benefit the many, if there is the slightest chance that a few, undeserving people will get a free ride.

This is a very American thing imo, particularly regarding healthcare. “We’d much rather pay extortionate healthcare insurance and have vast disparity in national health equality, than pay much less money and have healthcare for all.” In the US, socialism = communism, and something to be feared.

For me, the late 90s were probably our most recent peak. I may be biased though as I was a carefree university student at the time... The Labour election victory in 1997 felt really positive (I know, hindsight is a marvellous thing, but at the time Tony Blair was a refreshing change after a lifetime of Tory rule). The economy was growing after the recession in the early 90s. We had Britpop and Cool Britannia. There was real optimism about the new millennium.

Then 9/11 happened.

Then the 2008 Economic Crisis.

Then the coalition government and Austerity.

I'd love to feel as optimistic again as I did in the late 90s.