Euthanasie, dont legalise in UK.

[MrsMarkieParkie]

I just read that 8% of deaths in Canada last year happened via euthanasia. This doesnt sit right with me. Also, as described in the article, the protocol seems mostly the same as the US death by lethal injection.
Do we want this in the UK?

Obviously my grandfather requested that his doctor / friend did this and asked my Nan, aunt and mum to agree. This was in the 60s. My nan sadly suffered with dementia and had two strokes. I wish we were able to let her go peacefully, as she wanted and had said so many times when she still had mental capacity.
Both of my parents (In their late 70s/80s) say often that if they end up like my nan, can I please suffocate them. I can't and I won't, but allowing them to have a dignified, painless death would be my preference.

The Liverpool care pathway was subject to hysteria by the media they now follow the gold standards framework which is similar. If someone is requesting food drink and they can process and swallow it of course they should have it. They should also be given regular mouth care to prevent a dry mouth.

Relatives quite often will try to feed because we associate feeding with love and helping them get better even if they are in the last days of life . They also can misunderstand the process of cachexia which is wasting so assume that the staff must be starving them. It's common to have wasting in terminal illness and being unable to swallow. It's also common to start withdrawing from the world , a syringe driver is a kindness for the person.

The media and misunderstanding was why it got a bad reputation. I'm sure some staff didn't use correctly but the LCP was designed to minimise pain and suffering.

I don't see what's wrong with this though?

There isn't an endless pot of money; it makes little sense to me to spend ££ forcing somebody to endure a slow painful death when that money could be spent elsewhere.

I think we should have it. Also a maximum age by which you have to check out by somwhere between 75 and 95. Then the government and families can plan more easily financially. If you want to you could do something like 'buy' extra years. Or there could be like an annual lottery or draw where you can put your name in to get extra years. Something like that. I have often mulled on this during insomniac hours of the night.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it I'm pro patient requested euthanasia for terminal progressive condition.
The government won't legalise euthanasia to give us bodily autonomy and the right to a peaceful death, they will do it to save money. It's best we stop debating if it will be legalised, it's more a when. Society needs to start discussing the appropriate safeguards we want before the government do.

That sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

I'd love to see an example of a country where it works with proper safeguards.

Children (who on default don't have capacity) are allowed to 'choose' euthanasia in some places.
Or people with mental health problems who can be suicidal as a symptom. Let's not forget about health inequalities and the lack of mental healthcare provisions.

My friend went to Switzerland to dignitas. She had had a stroke and tried rehabilitation for 2 years- she could not function without 24 hour care . She could barely speak , but her mind was in tact . She needed help with every basic human function and she hated it .

Her family were subjected to a two year criminal investigation.

Absolutely ludicrous.

She made her choice and it cost thousands as the family had to charter a plane . Her daughter is a very famous journalist and she is now campaigning for others .

Bottom line- if I want to end my life in a dignified way who the fuck else's business is that ?

I am intrigued MrsTerryPrachett.

I thought they were supposed to relaxed and nice.

Can you give an example?

No. There is not a way to do what you're saying. And people are not animals!!

It's a massive slippery slope. I have heard of people being convinced that euthanasia is the best thing for them when they are mentally unwell.

I hope it's never legalised in the UK and I don't think it will be.

Bottom line- if I want to end my life in a dignified way who the fuck else's business is that ?

Because it's not just about you.

I want it legalised in UK, oh yes. I want to be able to die with dignity at some point, possibly quite soon (5-10 years) so that I don't have to suffer the indignities which will be forced upon me by ms. As I become increasingly unable to do things for myself, to remember new stuff, get more confused as my brain gets more and more damaged, unable to even manage the loo myself, can't be trusted on my mobility scooter - not to mention the ever-present pain which will only increase, and everything else which WILL happen to me....

Yes, let me die at a time of my choosing when the pain of just being alive and awake is greater than the pleasure, when I can still appreciate a warm sunny day, the loveliness of plants, the amazing thing that is the human body; when I can still thank my husband for what he does for me and look at my beautiful daughter and know exactly who she is.

Don't make my death harder than my life. Please.

I'd love a link to a source of this, as I searched Le Monde and couldn't find it. The most recent numbers I found on a Google search say euthanasia accounts for 3 3% of Canadian deaths on 2022, which is a very different figure than the OP cited and seems quite reasonable, really.

@4plusthehound

Housing First is great, they've never got further than terrible shelters and very limited housing. (Compare to Singapore or Finland).

Legalisation is great. Canada have legalised but not dealt with the youth MH fallout and other drugs. See Portugal.

Euthanasia is important. They've rolled it out without proper health supports first.

I won't touch trans issues but same.

Now they are trying things like safe use, legalised small quantities of hard drugs etc. All without the things that made that work in places like Switzerland.

Good ideas, terrible execution.

They think that you can half-arse things that work in other places without the parts that MAKE them work. Look all right-on and progressive, while having a massive homelessness, MH and health issue.

@Jux
I hope that you do get your wish 💐

It's being legalised in a lot of countries, USA is more religious than the UK and they have legalised it in a few states. It's coming because the government won't be able to afford to care for an aging population and not enough workers to pay the bill. It's best we talk about it now and what safeguards Vs when the government bring it in and do what they like.

It doesn't have to be a slippery slope.

It won’t happen in the UK whilst we have the NHS because it’ll be too easy to accuse the government of killing people to save money.

Plus, in theory, everyone has access to a pain free and dignified death.

Do I agree with it? I’m not sure. I agree with people’s right to die but the risk of expensive and time consuming relatives being emotionally blackmailed and brainwashed into it being the ‘decent’ thing to do terrifies me.

I know, right?!

WTAF 😱

I don't agree with Canada's legalisation but why would the UK have to be like that? Are people saying we should have to have long drawn out painful deaths because of what might possibly happen?

We have a situation where people who have incurable conditions are having to kill themselves sooner than they would otherwise like because no one is allowed to help them. I guess I will have to go to a dealer for fentanyl then if it's not legal by then.

I do.

I'm life limited and would love to be in control.

My grandad died at home of cancer. Nobody who saw him go through that would think it was important that he did.

Absolutely should be legalised with right safeguards. I’m sick of people saying that more $/resource should be put into palliative care as though it’s a golden wand. There are some end of life scenarios that are just horrific and no amount of money or resource can take that away. We don’t let animals go on with some conditions where their pain and discomfort can’t be alleviated and there will be no quality of life moving forward, as it is inhumane, yet corresponding people are just meant to suck it up because some people believe this horrendous suffering is the way to go? Fucking hell.

I find these discussions quite eye opening because so many posters seem to believe that long, drawn out, painful deaths are normal and the only solution is euthanasia.

I live in Australia and have experienced the deaths of my grandparents, father and many family friends. Some from cancer, some from dementia, some from other causes. None of them have experienced the horrors that are described in this thread. I also work for an organisation that specialises in dementia care. With the right, specialised care the majority of people with dementia can live happily and well. Yes, depending on the type of dementia some exhibit symptoms of distress. But is the solution really to kill them rather than care for them?

Regardless, I doubt it will ever be appropriate for people with dementia to access euthanasia as they do not have capacity to consent. And people can and do change their minds so committing to it in advance is fraught with risk. It also puts the burden of deciding that ‘it’s time’ onto another person which would be very tricky legally.

Surely improving care standards should be the first step before euthanasia?

The NHS won't exist in 10 years the way things are going , the country is deep in shit. No a patient should only be the one who requests it , I think in one country you have to request on three separate occasions before they even discuss it. It should be part of the advanced care planning process. The fact is we have the drugs available to hasten death if needed but far too many people are being left in pain because of a fear of getting into trouble because of shipman opiates were tightened up.

I think they did it for my nan , she had bowel cancer died within a fortnight she asked to die at home , they put a syringe driver in and she died within a few hours of getting back home. Her death was very quick and I'm grateful. Most others aren't that quick.

If you work within dementia , you know the course of the disease the final stages. The wasting repeated respiratory infections from dysphagia , the becoming immobile , potential contractures and pressure sores. I agree care does need to be improved but personally I don't want people to give me build up drinks , thickened fluids , purees and repeated Antibiotics. It's not going to work and I will still decline then die. It's the nature of the disease . The only choice I have to prevent this is doing an advanced decision to refuse treatment which really is horrifying. Give me medication and some music on while I slip away. I'm not saying all people should believe/do the same but I absolutely don't want my life prolonged and that should be my right.

We have Medicare in Australia and more states and territories are legalising VAD.

If someone has less than 6 months to live and has the cognitive function they can chose to access VAD. They need 2 independent medical assessments. If a doctor doesn't agree with VAD they don't have to participate in the process but must refer the person to a doctor who will assess.
Catholic public hospitals must transfer a patient to a secular hospital if a patient is planning on accessing VAD as an inpatient.

It doesn't work for people with dementia sadly as they don't pass the cognitive assessment portion. 15 years in health I have seen the whole gambit of dementia from those pleasantly confused and directable to such violence that it is incredible difficult to place them in an appropriate facility and ex POW servicemen who are utter escape artists even breaking out through a 2nd floor window.