Euthanasie, dont legalise in UK.

[MrsMarkieParkie]

I just read that 8% of deaths in Canada last year happened via euthanasia. This doesnt sit right with me. Also, as described in the article, the protocol seems mostly the same as the US death by lethal injection.
Do we want this in the UK?

In my job I see people who are suffering and have no quality of life for years. Their care is expensive and they and their families are miserable. I absolutely do want euthanasia here.

This must have been what happened to my Mum. Heartbreaking to watch. Could talk to her until that syringe driver went in. I wasn't told that she wouldn't be awake after that happened. She passed peacefully thank goodness.

I have always felt deeply sympathetic to people who find themselves in a position to wish euthanasia; or whose loved ones end up in a state where they know that would have been their wish if they could express it. However, I also believe that it is not possible to safely legalise this and at the same time retain adequate safeguards for those who do not wish euthanasia but are in some way vulnerable.

One of several groups I worry about, is older people who "feel they are a burden" and could decide it is their "responsibility" to ask for euthanasia.

Yabu, putting aside the personal wishes of individuals for a second, we've an aging population and a shrinking workforce, which is leading to an acute elderly care crisis.

The British public have made it quite clear that immigration, asking families to care for their elderly relatives, or increasing taxes to fund investment in the sector are absolute no-no's, so we're running out of options really.

@Puzzledandpissedoff people coming to the end of their natural life span and being kept comfortable is not a bad thing but unfortunately the vast majority of the people I work with with dementia for example are in care homes in various horrible states of life, not knowing where they are or why, agitated, lying in bed unable to move incontinent etc not what I want for myself

then there are those dying of cancer or other terminal illnesses who we just can’t seem to get it right for them pain relief wise or secretions wise sometimes because things just happen to fast for us to really deal with them particularly those who choose to die at home, i work in rural community nursing one of the areas we cover takes nearly 30 minutes to get to so if called out they could have quite the wait especially if we are with other people

families are a big obstacle as you say they want everything done regardless of whether it’s in the best interest of the their relative or not and can be very unrealistic. We as health professionals need to start being more frank

the nhs really is a victim of its own success In that it’s good at keeping people alive but not in good health a lot of the time

^ I agree.

I also support it, if you want to die in agony OP feel free ~I don’t.

@Thebestwaytoscareatory I spend a lot of time thinking about this, and it is a worry, particularly where I am it’s rural and the elderly population really outstrip the younger people they leave to go to cities as there is nothing here so I really don’t know what this generation and the next expect to happen, the vast majority are retirees from England coming for the free personal care which is fine but there are no carers to provide it or massive waits for them and I’m talking a year to 18 months for care packages currently.

I posted on the AI thread that robots may be an answer they could help with personal care, meals and meds and the current carers could provide some human contact

@GretaGood What do you mean about declining antibiotics? My dad had a syringe driver, he was unconscious after it was fitted. It haunts me. He took a few weeks to pass.

The British public have made it quite clear that immigration, asking families to care for their elderly relatives, or increasing taxes to fund investment in the sector are absolute no-no's, so we're running out of options really.

What does this have to do with euthanasia??

Immigration is already happening. And many people from different places are working in the care sector. The native population might be shrinking. But the population is increasing. Because. Immigration.
A lot of tax is already poured into the sector to fund it.
Plenty of families do care for their older family members.

But despite all this, you think the best option is for older people who have care needs is euthanasia. Why?

I'm ain favour of legalising the euthanasia, but people should realise it's not a silver bullet that can prevent any and all forms of painful death or 'undesirable' ways of living out one's final years.

I have two family members in the Netherlands whose requests for euthanasia were denied. One ended up with severe dementia and had a natural, but slow and painful death. The other ended up starving himself, not a very pleasant way to go either.

But that's the other side of the coin of having safeguards in place. It means that some, especially those suffering from cognitive impairments like dementia, will have their requests turned down because it cannot be ascertained that they truly wish to die.

@Jonei it isn't about 'older people with care needs'. In countries where euthanasia is legal, the vast majory of cases concern people with cancer first, cardiovascular disease second. We're talking terminal physical illness here, not just 'granny is a bit frail, let's get rid'. With the caveat of not trusting the current government and in the light of the existence of places where euthanasia has been legalised well (not perfectly, no such thing is possible), why should people not have the choice? There's no single best option for all, there are only options which are best for an individual.

Comments like those made by @Thebestwaytoscareatory are the reason I am opposed to Euthanasia being legalised.

There are a lot of people who think it's ok to bump off old, sick and disabled people.

Yes I’m aware of naloxone. That’s why I carefully said:

Deaths from overdoses of diamorphine are also irreversible

Death is irreversible. As far as I know.

@MyopicBunny you are entitled to your opinion, but there is plenty of evidence showing that it can be done well (not perfectly, but well). I am deeply thankful that my grandmother had the choice. And no, there wasn't an inheritance.

None of that is a reason to support euthanasia.

You would have to be some sort of sociopath to believe that people should be euthanised just because there aren’t enough workers to look after older people. Or as a cost cutting exercise. This type of thing is posted to stir up anti-euthanasia sentiments.

The only reason to legalise assisted dying it is to relieve suffering in the face of death; to give someone a good death instead of a horrific one.

Let people choose a humane way to die. What business is it of yours? Does it sit better with you to have someone in unspeakable pain, reduces to a physical wreck or living with an unbearable mind? Is that more acceptable to you? Or is them jumping off a building or suffocating on a lonely bed at home more palatable to you?

Yes exactly. We only need to look to Canada to see how badly it can be done. And there is a lot of people that would like to bump off older people once they perceive them as an expense / taking up housing etc.

I think it should be a choice, I've seen a lot of death. I want a quicker release the thing is we keep people alive at all costs especially if you have no advanced directive. Relatives will often want to carry on, if you have a progressive terminal illness no amount of antibiotics or special nutrition is going to cure that the body is failing. It's definitely become more about quantity Vs quality we have got very good at the body alive but not the previous functioning.

I understand people's reticence. I also understand that some doctors and other HCPs are uneasy with it and just as with abortion, none of them should forced to provide the service.

However, in the case of my family, euthanasia would decrease life by days or weeks, but decrease the pain and trauma suffered, massively.

Euthanasia would enable us to die with dignity and peace. It needs to be made law. Even if just for last stage terminal illnesses.

If people can’t swallow properly then food and water can run into the lungs and cause infection / pneumonia from which I assume patient might die . Giving them antibiotics stops the infection, but they can’t swallow so food and water is stopped and die over time from that.
i feel it would be better to die quicker of infection.
But someone would need to stop medics giving the anti-bs - and a family member would need to say No ABs - let them die. And no family member would be able to say that so the patient themself needs to have that written clearly in their end of life care.
This my view. Haven’t tried to write my end of life wishes yet.

You would have to be some sort of sociopath to believe that people should be euthanised just because there aren’t enough workers to look after older people.

... so the alternative is to leave these people stittng there hungry, unwashed and with no human contact? And that's better somehow?
"Not enough carers" is not a trivial problem.

@Teenangels , I don’t understand why you couldn’t even wet your poor mother’s lips. During her last days I sat a lot with an aunt who had advanced dementia - we were given little sponges with which to keep her mouth moist, but not enough for her to need to swallow - this was in her very good care home.
She was consistently refusing food and drink, would close her mouth and turn her head away, and thankfully did not seem to be in any discomfort or distress.

I never said anything about the disabled thank you.

I am of course being deliberately provocative by framing things so bluntly but it is often the only way to get people to stop burying their heads in the sand over the issues mentioned.

We're already seeing a crisis in elderly care that will only get worse and, if things continue as they are, we'll find ourselves in a position where it is a choice between caring for the elderly or caring for those with additional needs / long term conditions as we simply won't have the facilities or personnel to do both.

As I said the British public, including a higher proportion of elderly, have made their views on immigration or financing their own care very clear. There's also very little support for shifting the finical/physical responsibility of care towards families.

13 years of tory rule and austerity have not only massively impacted the care sector but have also reduced the overall health of the population to the point that life expectancy is decreasing (for the poor, which I suppose is one way of solving the care crisis).

All the reports I've read suggest that the demand for elderly care will increase by anywhere between 15-30% in the next few decades, and that 80+% of elderly in care are their due to severe memory related illnesses, which means they are not going to get better and are essentially being kept alive for the benefit of their families.

We can either continue to bury our heads in the sand and pretend things will somehow magically improve or we can start to have difficult discussions on how to address these issues.

There are Care Worker visas, re immigration, it’s not the case that the majority of public say no to this.