Euthanasie, dont legalise in UK.

[MrsMarkieParkie]

I just read that 8% of deaths in Canada last year happened via euthanasia. This doesnt sit right with me. Also, as described in the article, the protocol seems mostly the same as the US death by lethal injection.
Do we want this in the UK?

I sincerely hope it is legalised In my lifetime, I work in nursing and so see the way some people are kept alive with no quality of life, In pain etc every day and I do not want that for myself, I do not want to forget who my children are. There are definitely fates worse than death in some cases. I can make an advance directive stating I do not want antibiotics for every infection or any admits to hospital but someone pointed out on another similar thread that these are not always upheld

I don’t think you understand at all. If someone has a terminal diagnosis and wants to end their life then that is their own choice. So what if they could have lived one more week or month in terror and pain? Why do people like you get to take that choice of a peaceful and dignified death away from them.

I'm not talking about people who are already in pain - I'm talking about people who are given a prognosis that turns out not to accurate. Im assuming they would then plan to die early before they were in any pain?

People like me? I live in this country too and I don't want my rights to be eroded. Why should people like you assume you're right in every situation?

During the covid pandemic there was a great deal of reporting on disabled people having DNRs without their own or their family's knowledge in the event that they became very ill with covid. Why should I trust the government not to abuse legislation around euthanasia or not to implement proper 'safeguarding' which people on the thread are so sure would happen.

Im assuming they would then plan to die early before they were in any pain?

Your assumption is very wrong. If you look at the data from Oregon, where assisted dying is legal, a substantial % of the people who register for it upon diagnosis never make use of it. What they want is the choice to have a dignified way out if they need it.

If your assumption were correct then you would see a large majority of the people diagnosed with painful cancers taking the assisted way out long before they are in any pain in countries where this is legal. Again, the data does not support this.

On the other hand, people in the UK DO die earlier than they would have needed to had assisted dying been legal, because they have to be physically able to travel to Switerland independently. So you have it completely upside down.

During the covid pandemic there was a great deal of reporting on disabled people having DNRs without their own or their family's knowledge in the event that they became very ill with covid.

Yes this was the case for older people and people with disabilities. It absolutely does not inspire trust.

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. But death is irreversible. There are also situations where someone is told they have weeks or days to live but in the end they live a lot longer.

Deaths from overdoses of diamorphine are also irreversible and happen on the streets every day through misuse but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be used legitimately. Women are still prescribed diamorphine every day during childbirth.

Most of us are not advocating for it to be legalised for the moment you get a diagnosis. That’s not how it’s used. Most people have some sort of long or short decline over time. They are in hospital and go past the point of no return. It certainly should be available for the last 3 months and few weeks of life. The other group are people who have degenerative incurable illnesses which get to a point of existing in a state of living torture with a horrible death.

Having spent an utterly horrible 24 hours in hospital recently watching an elderly woman with dementia being neglected and ignored I have made sure that my advanced directive is in place. I also made a complaint and have tried to highlight cases like this with the media.
I am afraid of ending up needing care that the NHS/social care (in my experience) does not provide.
I also campaign for assisted dying.

We absolutely urgently need assisted dying in the U.K. It cannot come quickly enough for those with a terminal diagnosis, facing a horrible death, at least.

My concerns have happened since people who had LD's, often in their 20's were left to die, while we gave 80+ year olds intervention, during Covid. The old attitudes towards disabled people are very much there. Also we have a lot of people who use the fact that women could have opted for abortion to not care about child poverty and social housing conditions. Those people will no doubt not care the state social care and residential settings are allowed to drop down to. Under a Tory government, I don't want it. I'm surprised at so many people experiencing harrowing deaths. Doctors can sedate people, so they are out of pain, even if that could contribute to death. But the person has to have a DNR, wishes made clear when reasonably well and most importantly, the family has to be onboard. I'm in Liverpool, my DH was helped along by the Liverpool pathway. I don't agree with starving people to death, but there could easily be an in-between. I have two very disabled friends. Both housebound, relying on carers. One wouldn't want to live in the state she is in. The other desperately wants to live. He does get low mood and recently was hospitalised. He was very confused during that time and it would have been easy to convince him into euthanasia. It's actually a fear of his. He won't have visitors because he knows he won't get treatment for Covid, that the none disabled take for granted.

Yes I agree about LDs and diagnostic over shadowing still we shouldn't deny people a pain free death and bodily autonomy over risk. There's a lot of work to do but within LD with the LeDer and Oliver McGowan training we are making inroads. LD life expectancy is increasing.

In this situation we are talking about people with progressive terminal illnesses they can give medication but since shipman there's a lot more reluctance to prescribe the large amounts in case they get into trouble. I think if you have capacity and have specifically asked for it in advanced care planning you should be able to request it for when your health deteriorates.

It's so sad when people do go to dignitas as they will have to be relatively well, have capacity to make the journey. So they will have to end it far before they are ready which is so cruel .

Re Diamorphine overdoses being “ Irreversible “
Absolutely not true!

Prenoxad nasal spray or injection can reverse an opioid overdose.

Get from a drugs project or GP.

Saves lives.

I'm surprised at so many people experiencing harrowing deaths. Doctors can sedate people, so they are out of pain, even if that could contribute to death.

That is so completely untrue. Loads of people die in intractable pain, pain that cannot be relieved by even the very best palliative care. Sedation does not mean pain-free, it does not mean like general anaesthesia, which is never used in palliative care. And even the best pain-relieving medication available under the most expert care may have no effect on some people.

One of the most sensible things I’ve heard so far about the LCP. Spot on.

I'd like to have the choice personally, plus as others have already said, we wouldn't allow animals to go through what we force people to go through. I believe I would like to see euthanasia with appropriate guidelines and qualifiying criteria legalised.

@Nursejackie1 seconded.

People bought into the LCP hysteria so easily, and people are so naive about what is possible with palliative care.

Your rights wouldn’t be eroded. You would still have the right to die as you wish. Nothing would change for you.

as previous posters have said, people die early right now because they currently have to travel to Switzerland BEFORE they feel they are ready because they fear they won’t be able to make it if they wait too long. You have this back to front.
if you can choose when the time is right, you would.

I highly doubt anyone is going to take a taxi home from the hospital after their diagnosis and end their life that night.

but when the time comes, and life isn’t worth living, we need the power to make that choice before it becomes utterly hellish. And it does. Trust me I’ve seen it.

@MyopicBunny the Netherlands has a pretty right wing government and nobody over there is bumping off hordes of oldies. However, I would not trust our current government to legislate for this simply because they have shown themselves to be so spectacularly incompetent about absolutely everything.

Yes that's my concern as well.

I work in nursing and so see the way some people are kept alive with no quality of life, In pain etc every day ...

Definitely with you on that, AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii; however to my layperson's mind there seems a difference between allowing nature to take its course and active killing - and when someone's coming naturally to the end of their lifespan I'm not sure that allowing the inevitable to happen (with symptom management of course) is any bad thing

I've also experienced very aged relatives being treated for such as pneumonia when it's clearly not in their best interests, and been told that if something's deemed to be treatable then in the absence of any advance directive it has to be treated. I don't know if this still applies (?) and I realise that relatives who expect everything to be cured are another issue, but again it hardly seems helpful

True enough, pointythings, but even in the Netherlands it appears they've had cases off "due care not met": https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/10/e017628

The most honest response for me was from AveragePerson5 who said "There will always be abusive people. Safeguards can never be 100%. That isn’t a reason not to have laws and processes that are largely beneficial to people"
To my mind that works, just so long as there was a way of making absolutely sure that financial imperatives for the NHS weren't allowed to come into it - though how this could be prevented is anyone's guess

@EuphemiaLives

I'm so sorry for you and your poor dad, and everyone else affected by such a terrible situation 💐

@Puzzledandpissedoff I agree with you that no system can be 100% safe from being abused. But that's no different from anything else in medicine and it irks me that people don't see that. They expect everything to be 100% safe and if it isn't, we mustn't do it at all. Then when you point out that not even their paracetamol and Ibuprofen are 100% safe, they're either annoyed or they refuse to believe you. It's about managing risk. And if someone has capacity, they should be allowed to take that decision and take that risk.

If you have seen BOTH your parents die in absolute agony and you don't have any advocates ie kids sorry but I'm gunning for euthanasia all the way

And in the Covid pandemic, due to travel restrictions, there were people who had been accepted at Dignitas due to their illness who were then unable to travel, and who then killed themselves in the most horrendous ways.