Why aren't parents held responsible for their children's criminal offences?

[Nat6999]

news.sky.com/story/boy-12-arrested-on-suspicion-of-murder-after-woman-hit-by-car-in-sheffield-12851331

Last night in the nearby area to me a 60 year old woman was killed by a 12 year old who was trying to steal her car. It is a lovely area where it happened, my brother lives round the corner, as you can imagine it has been a massive shock to residents.

A 12 year old boy has been charged with murder, he ran her over with the car as she tried to stop him taking the car, it happened at 7.30pm & she died at the scene. Why aren't parents held responsible for their son's actions? He was armed with a knife as well. If my son had been involved with crime at that age I would have known, he wasn't allowed out unless I knew where he was & who he was with, is it that some parents just don't care?

@BramleyAppleHotCrossBun

But your child’s narcissism does come from one parent? So technically the root cause of it was a dickhead parent who was also devoid in empathy. Depending on what you think in regards to personality disorders, you’re not born with them. They’re very much shaped by the child’s environment, particularly in the early years. Doesn’t matter if you then “parented the fuck out of them”, which by the way comes across as very overbearing and it’s no wonder your child thinks the universe revolves around them.

When will parents actually accept some fault for the way their kids turn out? It’s not rocket science.

None of mine are criminal, thankfully, but I'm not going to blame the parents. These things are always very complex. No, I'm not going to take responsibility for my children's choices. I've known plenty of teens to lie to their parents about where they are and who they are with. The parents are oblivious. My children have some different values than I raised them with in some areas. Nothing wrong with that, but it shows our children don't always pick up on parent values for whatever reason.

That’s so, so awful. I kind of agree OP. If I had a dog and it bit someone, I’d be held accountable. I don’t see why it should be any different for parents when their feral kids do something awful like this.

Dogs are easy. You make sure they are fenced in, on lead when out, behind barriers. Kids make choices, get exposed to other ideas, and have free will. Dogs don't. If I contained my kids the way I contain my dogs, sure, they couldn't put a foot wrong. They wouldn't be very able to manage in the world once they were released at 18 though as they'd not have been given the chance to grow in it. Unfortunately that freedom sometimes leads to them finding a wrong path, no matter how conscientious the parent.

Plenty of people with abusive parents grow up to be decent members of society. By OP's logic do the parents deserve credit for how thier child turned out?

My mother, my brother and I were subject to the worst DV until I was 10, my brother going on 12, when my mother finally managed to break us free and we spent nearly a year moving from relative to relative so he couldn’t find us. This was in the early 70s. She worked tirelessly, late hours, to provide us with a home. When we settled, my brutalised brother took over where my father left off and made our lives hell. No-one in authority wanted to know or help. He stabbed someone when he was 14 and was taken into borstal.
Was that the fault of my traumatised mother, working herself to exhaustion to keep a roof over our heads?

Sorry but unless you know the particular circumstances in every case, you can’t make such a sweeping statement.

Dogs are not as simple as that at all, it takes a second to bite someone and equally, children are meant to be more intellegent, rational and have a better understanding of human ideas around right and wrong than dogs do. If were meant to be responsible for an animal that can’t even speak/understand English, parents should be responsible for their children that can.

I'm not sure how you're going to hold the caregiver responsible if she's dead.

I have two dogs and plenty of children. The dogs are easy.

So your kids are never going to be exposed to other influences than yourself? Never make a mistake or decision they regret? Never make a mistake because they were naive about a situation? Are you going to shadow them their whole life?

But again, you could say the same from dogs, could be a rescue with an unknown background, could go to doggy darecare or a pet sitter.

And sorry, but stealing a car and running a woman over is not a “mistake” for god sake. It’s a act of violence he knew was wrong. Let’s not minimise, even if you disagree with me on the point about dog owners.

Oops, so many typos!

Thinking of the case in the US where the 6 year old shot his teacher, the parents should be held accountable for allowing the child access to a loaded gun. And he has needs which they knew about so even more accountable

Yes, that's very true about dogs. It's always very sad when improper socialisation results in poor outcomes. Though if we're comparing to kids from adverse backgrounds, some of the best kids I've known have come from what would be considered hard starts. Not that we can really compare dogs and children, which was my point.

I certainly won't minimise what this boy has done. It is violence and wrong feels like too weak a word. I don't blame the parents though. I would expect to find it far more complex than that. It's not that the parents might not have a role, small or large. Just there is no guarantee they did. I never jump to blaming the parents without all the facts.

Yabvu.
I doubt very much few parents even bad ones, say to their dc go out and steal a car/murder someone or any other serious crime.
I know the parents of 3 brothers, one is an accountant, one a sports coach and the other a thief with a drug habit and who has never worked. They all had very similar opportunities and I saw them grow up with very loving parents, who are now turning themselves inside out trying to work out what they did wrong even though they tried everything to help him. Nothing is the answer.

Plenty of families where all the children do well - then there is the one child who doesn't. Some people just can't be reached, no matter how much love and effort you give it. That's always heartbreaking.

Personally I blame the grandparents. Because if the parents are shit it can only be because they in their turn had shit parents.

What about the great-great grandparents though? I think they’re the key.

I mean, if mine had had less than 14 kids maybe they’d have been better parents and then the knock on effect to how my gr-grandparents parented my grandparents would be better?

I don't know. I have a 13 year old and a 16 year old and when they say they are going up town with their mates I just have to trust that they aren't going around steal cars and running people over. I can't keep them locked up and they need to become independent at some stage. Obviously, I don't believe they would ever do that but how would I know for sure, how could anyone?

If the boy was in foster care, you have to think about the effect that earlier childhood experiences- in any number of settings, potentially - could have had on brain development.

Drug exposure in utero affects brain development.

Physical mistreatment in babyhood can lead to brain injury.

Neglect affects brain development.

Lack of ‘normal’ social interaction- eg not bring talked to by adult carers or not having enough time from over-stretched children’s home staff - affects brain and emotional development.

Lack of secure attachment- eg series of foster homes or children’s homes - affects emotional development and eg impulse control.

These cannot be undone, even when the child then enters a more secure foster or adoptive setting.

If we punish ‘the parents / caregivers’, how many people are we talking about? Biological mother? Absent father? Multiple foster parents? Every member of staff in the children’s home? Or do we just blame the person who happened to be ‘holding the parcel’ when the music stops?

Well, the carer is dead now, so count that as a win for your 'accountability' 🙄

Great, so everyone supports paying more tax so the support services exist for parents who are struggling, for the women trying to hold it together with 3 shite low paying jobs and insecure housing.

Glad we got that one sorted.

That was. Although the mother was quite complicit in how she shaped Kevin. I'm thinking of the part where she injured his arm and then got him to keep it a secret from dad.

Society definitely needs some sort of shake up but, even in a perfect society, there will be problems and crime.

And the Dad was completely dismissive of his wife's concerns and enabled the situation to go unaddressed too.

@MrsSkylerWhite I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
I have experienced DV too. It changes you and makes you fearful of the world, rather than curious about it.