Why aren't parents held responsible for their children's criminal offences?

[Nat6999]

news.sky.com/story/boy-12-arrested-on-suspicion-of-murder-after-woman-hit-by-car-in-sheffield-12851331

Last night in the nearby area to me a 60 year old woman was killed by a 12 year old who was trying to steal her car. It is a lovely area where it happened, my brother lives round the corner, as you can imagine it has been a massive shock to residents.

A 12 year old boy has been charged with murder, he ran her over with the car as she tried to stop him taking the car, it happened at 7.30pm & she died at the scene. Why aren't parents held responsible for their son's actions? He was armed with a knife as well. If my son had been involved with crime at that age I would have known, he wasn't allowed out unless I knew where he was & who he was with, is it that some parents just don't care?

BettyBoop3 agreed there needs to be reform in policing, Social Services, Children's Services & Education as too many families & children fall through the net. Too many children miss out on education after being excluded while waiting for places in PRU, maybe secondary schools each having their own PRU on site or groups of schools sharing a unit would work. Children need good role models to help them develop healthy relationships & behaviour & guide them on the right path. There is a need to bring back youth services & youth clubs that were cut & the clubs closed. There used to be an amazing youth club that covered the area this lady was killed in, the staff were dedicated to working for the young people who went there & kept many from going off the rails & out of trouble. They also were someone who wasn't a parent to listen to the young person's problems & not judge but give advice, they cared about every one of the members. It also kept them off the streets, involved in activities & helped them develop interests like sports, arts, music, car maintenance & dance. The young people were involved with running the club, they ran the coffee bar, were dj's, helped maintain the building ding painting, decorating & repairs. That is one thing that is needed to keep youth crime down.

Ooooo

remember that film, We Have to Talk about Kevin.

My god. Eye-opening.

Yes to all the above. Not to punishing parents. The Tory government is responsible for this crime. If they hadn't repeatedly cut the budgets for all of the above services there's a decent chance the outcome for this child would have been different.
As said upthread, a disproportionate number of criminals were either brought up in care or had abusive parents. It's prevention we need more of, not harsh punishments that ultimately do more harm.

The parents should be held responsible and so should the child. If this happened parents would try to parent correctly and not have their kid on the street with a knife and stealing and in this case killing someone. There are no excuses for having your child out and committing crime.

Surely thought, with teenagers, the only way you could guarantee your child was not doing anything illegal would be to supervise them at all times. It’s hat realistic for a 12 year old +?

Also this child was in care and not in the care of his parents.

The care givers should be held responsible. Correct parenting enables a child to know right from wrong.

Are you the same OP who posted about the neighbour's cat shitting in your garden? It's spooky if not, because this is the exact same nonsensical logic.

I teach in a pupil referral unit. Although some of the students there are products of their upbringing, some have lovely, desperate,very distressed parents at their wits end who have done all the parenting, all the lines drawn, grabbed all the help they can and still can't help their child.

Sometimes children's behaviour isn't just as a result of parents not laying down the law. It's not that simplistic. A good example of this is county lines- you would not believe how many "nice" kids fall prey to that.

Ok. What do you think will happen if foster carers had to take legal responsibility if the children in their care commit crimes?

There is already a shortage of good foster carers, especially those willing to care for older children with difficult behaviour and significant needs. So when people refuse to foster older children with complex needs, because they don’t want to end up in prison if that child commits a crime, who is going to care for those children?

what crime would the foster parents be charged with?
What happens to other children in the parent/carers care if they go to prison?

Why would you expect to be punished for their crime?

What country do you live in that this would be a reasonable expectation? It can't be the UK because no parent here would reasonably expected to be held responsible for their offspring's criminal behaviour.

Seriously, OP?

This is the kind of thoughts that comes from the guts not from the brain. You need to blame someone, you need to punish someone, but doesn’t look like you are looking for a solution in society.

This.

I've raised my ds. His df has barely spent any time with him, and has certainly not contributed to his moral or ethical values.

If my ds went off the rails would it be my fault for being responsible 24/7 while working full time and providing for us, or his df's fault for being completely irresponsible?

I think some people need to blame the parents because the alternative is to imagine that your own (well bought up) child is capable of such a heinous crime.

Gives a feeling of superiority.

@BananaBlue

I don’t know any well raised kids who kill people at aged 12. The fact people are just normalising that describing it as behavioural is worrying.

There’s a different to bad behaviour and psychopathic behaviour completely devoid of empathy or any sort of conscience, which is well developed in 12 year olds who have been raised to know a very simple right from wrong.

I grew up somewhere parents were accountable, with things like fines for anti-social behaviour or theft. I think it could rise to community service or jail.
However there were pretty much no consequences for however you chose to manage a child, bar extreme injury or neglect.
I can’t see how you could work it within the western parenting model

I think crimes like these signal more than a “going off the rails”.

How long should someone have to be a “care giver” for before they’re legally responsible?

My grandparents for example. Took my siblings and I from our abusive parents and gave us a proper home. I was 7. My siblings were 12, 13 and 15.

The 13yo was involved in an incident at 15. Grandparents should have been held responsible or not?

and at what point do foster caters have to be legally responsible for the children they’re trying to help? Because I imagine that would have a considerable impact on the already low numbers

If my son had been involved with crime at that age I would have known, he wasn't allowed out unless I knew where he was & who he was with, is it that some parents just don't care?

A 12yo boy who has full mental capacity and had been in the UK's school system for 7 years knows he shouldn't take a car. He knows he shouldn't drive a car at another human. He may not have realised he would kill the poor lady but he knew what he was doing was wrong. At 12 he is responsible for his actions. His parents may have been guilty of poor parenting, but by 12, the boy has free will and made his own decisions.

Now hopefully, he will be raised in a secure environment where he will be physically unable to run wild, for at least 6 years until adulthood, to get sorted.

I’m not sure anyone is normalising this or any other crime.

What people are saying is good upbringing doesn't always = non-criminal.

There are caring engaged parents tearing their hair out at their child’s behaviour.
There are parents getting their kids to help rob.

It’s a moot point in any case as

1. the child was in care (maybe shit parents, maybe an orphan or ill parent),

1. We don’t know if this was murder or manslaughter? was he trying to Nick the car and lost control? Did he purposefully put his foot down to hurt her?

What I do know is a poor lady has lost her life and I prefer to wait for more information before making assumptions.

If you think 6 years in a youth custody with get him “sorted” you are delusional.

most end up with more trauma, more issues and come out and commit more crimes.

I suppose though after 6 years if he commits more crime the staff at the custody centre will be legally liable for him future crimes?

If I have them the right way round, isn’t Veneables the one with the better background who has gone on to receive additional convictions?

which suggests nature, not nurture.

The quality of parenting varies bit by far the majority of people go on to lead lives that are crime free. Parents can only do so much and are not responsible for their children’s actions.

Do we know this child has full mental capacity?

Could have severe learning difficulties.

Could be a psychopath.

We really don’t know.

This.

I have 4 DC, all of whom have been taught right and wrong. Three of them are good, honest, decent kids. One of them doesn’t give a flying fuck about right or wrong, they only care about themself and what they want. They are now an older teen, and no longer live with us. We have parented THE FUCK out of that child. It hasn’t made the blindest bit of difference. I’m utterly heartbroken that they’re just turning into a clone of their abusive, narcissistic father. But no amount of desperate parenting and screaming (metaphorically) to services for help has ever made a difference.

It’s not always a parenting problem.

Do we know this child has full mental capacity?

Yes, it's obviously a factor. There's a lot we don't know yet.

Who do you think is responsible for that now? It's not the child, as they are considered too young to be able to make a reasonable choice. The burden of responsibility/blame in that case applies to the adult who supplied a child with these things. That's why shopkeepers can get into such serious trouble if they are not checking ID.

It's not like the US where a 16 year old can get a criminal record from being found in posession of alcohol.

(I'm not sure how it works in the case of things like illegal weapons, drugs etc that no adult should have either).