DS22 sleeps until late afternoon, stays in bed on his phone, no uni and no job

[belgianchocolat]

DS is 22. He was in his fourth year at uni (living at home) studying for an integrated masters science degree, but he suspended his studies after Christmas as he hadn't been able to keep up with his research project because, in his words, he "wasn't in the right frame of mind".

His sleeping patterns haven't been great since he was about 15, he used to be incredibly difficult to get up in time for school. There was no bus to school so I had to drop him and his sister off each morning and he often made them both late which was very stressful and unfair for me and his sister. He is a very deep sleeper and can easily sleep through alarms, prompts from me etc. If he has decided he's not getting up, he won't get up.

However in the last year and particularly the last 6 months his sleeping pattern has become even worse. There have been occasions recently where I have got up for the day just after 6am and he's been in the bathroom brushing his teeth about to go to bed. He would then sleep all day until maybe 6.30pm, wake up when it was already dark outside, lie in his bed scrolling on his phone for another hour, then have a shower and get dressed. He may not come downstairs until after 8pm, when the rest of the household is thinking towards bedtime. This is the worst scenario but even today he was asleep until 3.30pm and is still in bed on his phone, blinds closed, now.

When he withdrew from uni I told him he needed to get a job, and with reminders/persuasion he began applying for jobs in retail and hospitality. He has been invited for a couple of interviews and he has told them he's coming, but then at the last minute doesn't attend. So he now has no uni and no job. Even if he did have a job I don't know how he'd be able to do it because he sleeps at such antisocial hours.

He was seeing a counsellor from about September last year until Christmas, but since then has decided he is taking a break from that until he "sorts himself out". Needless to say I think the point of him going to counselling is because he can't sort himself out on his own!

He doesn't have any friends to speak of and can't get to the GP because even if he could find the motivation and organise himself to ask for an appointment, you have to ring the surgery at 8.30am often up to 200 times (I wish I was exaggerating) and of course he's never awake then. I also don't know if he'd be able to see there could be a problem requiring help from a doctor.

I don't know what to do with him anymore. He doesn't seem to see what the big deal is, yet at the same time hates that he misses out on life and this sends him deeper into a spiral. He's 22 so I can't fix it for him, but it's so hard seeing him waste his life and it's affecting the mood of others in the house.

You absolutely sure? What you describe is classic of a heavy cannabis user.

I am a mental health nurse. Most of the time I get frustrated with everything being attributed to a mental health condition on mumsnet. In this case I think it's a real possibility that your son is either significantly depressed or even has some early negative symptoms of a psychotic disorder. People with negative symptoms of psychosis can appear lazy ,disengaged and the expected psychotic symptoms are hidden. He is also the 'right' age for this and it is often first apparent at university. I would make him a GP appointment for late afternoon, if necessary write to GP first explaining his presentation and then tell him you are so worried you want him to at least talk to the GP.

I have a relative who made it all the way through uni, got a 2:1 and now has been doing this for the last year. Never applied for any jobs. It’s much better to try and get the support while they’re still in uni because there’s more available in terms of counselling etc.

I was like OP's son for a good part of my 20s and cannabis made me feel absolutely awful the very few times I tried it, like the exact same horrible mental state (and behaviours) I naturally had magnified and multiplied. So biologically there are people already wired like that.

The tough love posts are irritating me.

He is clearly suffering and needs support making connections, chucking him out and turning off his phone, which may be giving him his only connection to the outside world, are not the answers.

I've been here OP, and my child's life has improved dramatically, albeit different circumstances.

I found having a plan really helped. There's been some good suggestions already but to put them all together:

     - book a GP appt for him, for the latest possible slot.
     - if you think he could have asd/adhd 'burnout', look to get a private screening appointment. It helped my dc know her problems weren't just her being 'a disaster' but caused by something lots of other people also experience, and that there are whole communities of people who also understand your struggles.
    - Melatonin, you can get gummies. Take one half an hour before going to sleep, but ideally when he's had the majority of day awake.
    - Sunrise alarm clock and SAD lights. Revolutionary for me as someone who has always struggled to get up. The pp who's parents removed the curtains really made me laugh, but this would also have the same effect in the summer.
    - Hot water thermos beside his bed with fav mug and tea/coffee ready so he can pour when he wakes.
     - plan an hour out at a place where he used to really enjoy. Not a whole day as that's too much pressure to start, but small steps initially. Things like drive through mcdonalds/ fav place for dog walk / a drive to a canal walk were things that started getting my dc out the house and we tried to keep it little and often and built from there. Try and keep everything v low pressure. No punishments if he can't manage it.
     - talk about times you've/family members found hard or even other people's stories. Watch films about people who have struggled. Normalise his feelings as much as possible. Sadly this is very common.

Really feel for you op, it is a very difficult time watching your child being incredibly isolated from the world.

I think this is harsh at this stage before any ginal warning.

What stands out for me is OP said he has no friends. Why is this?

I have no idea why my post is hidden 🤔

Reading with interest. This describes quite a few young men I know about (one in the family). Sometimes there is cannabis use sometimes there is not.

I would focus 100% on him getting work; perhaps part time at first. Use all the love, support, nurturing you have inside you but unless there are medical reasons why not, everyone is better off working and he needs to know this. It won’t fix everything but will give him back some rhythm in his life and make him feel less useless so he can then build on that and improve other aspects of his life.

Encourage him to apply for night shift in warehouse jobs?

@GooseberryCinnamonYogurt
“You absolutely sure? What you describe is classic of a heavy cannabis user.”

He doesn’t go out.

I always wonder about removing the curtains/SAD lights etc. Having sunlight doesn't stop me from being able to sleep so removing curtains would do nothing. I can fall asleep in daylight, I can wake up and see it's daylight streaming in the windows and still just go right back to sleep. Does sunlight really stop people sleeping?

Aha, my post from 9.32 has been 'unhidden'. No idea why mumsnet hq needed to look into it.

Totally agree with this.

We have someone in our extended family like this. Was always labelled as an "anxious" child but parents refused to take him to the GP, or even admit there was an issue. By the time he was about 15 he was school refusing, didn't sit any of his GCSEs and left school with no qualifications.

That was 15 years ago. He'll be 31 this year and is still living at home with his parents. They support him financially, he's never been in the Benefits system so there is nobody asking why this man is sitting in his bedroom for years on end. There are most definitely medical/mental health issues but again, person refuses to go to doctors and even in the past when his mum has made the appointment, has refused to get into the car. He is going to end up the same as the person @DoctorMartin describes - 50, still living with his parents, no job, no qualifications, no relationship. It's really sad.

So OP you are doing the right thing by being worried about it and acknowledging that there is a problem. You are going to have to take the lead here as your DS won't. If you can get him to agree to seeing the GP, that'd be a start.

I just want to say the exact steps you listed were constant factors in helping me slowly get out of my dysfunction over years: sleep tablets at night and coffee in thermos by bed in the morning, spending non-judgmental low-pressure time with my family, low-key absorbing media about others who struggled, etc.

On the other hand, my aunt/uncle were of the "tough love" variety and my cousin's life (ND/mental health struggles/what have you run very strongly in the family, it's not just us two) shrunk and shrunk. Eventually she did something that means she's no longer around. I also have relatives who were not given any support from their family at all and have managed to get work and rent alone (homelessness isn't an issue in my country but in the UK they would have become homeless) but maybe due to finding forced survival a huge strain, haven't left their house or socialised for decades.

Sorry I hope this doesn't sound like scaremongering, and of course we all have to learn to support ourselves eventually, but it doesn't hurt to give someone the resources and community to succeed. I think "tough love" only works when the foundation of good mental health and being wired in a way that fits in with society is already there.

Having some experience of someone like this in my family, you have all my sympathy. You do need to get very tough to help him sort this out now as the consequences of him just staying like this are potentially so serious.

I'm not sure there's any one easy answer and you've already had some good advice but a couple of suggestions in addition to those -

*Are you in a position to get a dog? If so, dogs are so therapeutic and might help your son leave his room and engage more. Ideally he would take on walking the dog daily and that alone can help such a lot

*Do you have a spare room? If so I would look at getting a lodger in who is a bit older then your son - giving them reduced rent in return for acting as a support worker of sorts might be good, even if they don't do that they might be a positive influence. You'd need to pick someone very carefully but someone with some basic mental health training who is functioning and out lots and ho will gently keep inviting your son out with them would potentially help a lot.

• Can you pay for private support? Not even therapy, just a support worker to drop round once a week? Someone who will help clean the room and encourage him to help out, go out on a walk with your son or take him out for a coffee? The more your son stays in and isolated, the worse this is going to get. This is the thing I'd say isn't optional. You won't kick your son out, but you could frame this as 'if you want to live here, this is compulsory.' There are some v good support workers out there and the deal could be you will drop this is he is showing he is getting himself out even once a week and engaging with something with others.

*If your son will talk to you, setting some basic goals and being firm around them will help. So again in order to keep living with you, he has to hoover 1x a week and eat a meal with you once a week that he's cooked (if you can invite a friend round for the meal just so you're breaking up his isolation, that will help). He has to study something even if it's an online short course. Anything that means he's working towards a goal. That increases self-esteem. He doesn't need to know you won't actually kick him out.

It will be hard and if he's very low or anxious or has undiagnosed autism he may very well be really resistant to change but it is so important you stay firm. Small but steady progress is what to aim for, he clearly won't be able to make any big changes at present.

@PutYourBackIntoit I think your post was probably hidden because an algorithm picked up the g word you used to describe the form of melatonin!

@adhdgirll I'm so sorry to hear about your cousin, and thank you for sharing that the steps I listed also helped you. My dd has adhd and so do I. Its been a learning curve, and we parent v differently to how we naturally would without having had the diagnosis. I am a better parent for it.

@WaitingForSunnyDays thank you, it had me perplexed, and overthinking. I'll avoid that word in future!

Sounds like depression. Make him GP appointment late afternoon and try to get him there. It's no way to live his life.

looking at your son’s education and sleeping pattern he could do NHS night work, e.g. 111. Someone with a science degree, even if not completed to masters level, would be very employable. Pay is not great but there is a significant uplift for night work. Then he can figure out his plans. Many young people do that sort of work so it would be good for him socially.

This is what I was going to suggest. I’m not a MH nurse but a family member was diagnosed with schizophrenia at 24 and your description OP was eerily similar to how it started with them.

I agree.

What you describe is typical of depression. I know because I have been there.

All I can say to you is, it doesn't last forever and if you give your son peace at this time he will look back and be very thankful.

It doesn’t work unfortunately…I have a son like this and he’ll do this occasionally to re-set but then his sleep schedule changes by about one hour a day until he’s back to normal.

But depression and serious mental health problems can last for ever.
Just giving time works for people with okay mental health who have a bout of depression spanning from a bad time.

Sadly, this is just like my DB. He’s exactly like this, in his mid 50s. Although he isn’t able to use computers (probably thankfully) and spends his days aimlessly around coffee shops and evenings in pubs. He has helped as a volunteer, though how much help he’s actually being is probably very limited.

In his case, he was diagnosed as schizophrenic for years, now that’s changed to autism. Actually, it’s probably complex PTSD as a result of CSA, my DSis and I have both been diagnosed with this.

I hope you manage to find out what’s behind this change in your DS. I think it’s very unlikely to be laziness all of a sudden after years of studying hard.

Hea 22 but that’s still young and you are his mother. He seems to be very depressed or suffering from some MH issues. You won’t phone the GP for him, knowing that he won’t do it if you don’t? 😯