DS22 sleeps until late afternoon, stays in bed on his phone, no uni and no job

[belgianchocolat]

DS is 22. He was in his fourth year at uni (living at home) studying for an integrated masters science degree, but he suspended his studies after Christmas as he hadn't been able to keep up with his research project because, in his words, he "wasn't in the right frame of mind".

His sleeping patterns haven't been great since he was about 15, he used to be incredibly difficult to get up in time for school. There was no bus to school so I had to drop him and his sister off each morning and he often made them both late which was very stressful and unfair for me and his sister. He is a very deep sleeper and can easily sleep through alarms, prompts from me etc. If he has decided he's not getting up, he won't get up.

However in the last year and particularly the last 6 months his sleeping pattern has become even worse. There have been occasions recently where I have got up for the day just after 6am and he's been in the bathroom brushing his teeth about to go to bed. He would then sleep all day until maybe 6.30pm, wake up when it was already dark outside, lie in his bed scrolling on his phone for another hour, then have a shower and get dressed. He may not come downstairs until after 8pm, when the rest of the household is thinking towards bedtime. This is the worst scenario but even today he was asleep until 3.30pm and is still in bed on his phone, blinds closed, now.

When he withdrew from uni I told him he needed to get a job, and with reminders/persuasion he began applying for jobs in retail and hospitality. He has been invited for a couple of interviews and he has told them he's coming, but then at the last minute doesn't attend. So he now has no uni and no job. Even if he did have a job I don't know how he'd be able to do it because he sleeps at such antisocial hours.

He was seeing a counsellor from about September last year until Christmas, but since then has decided he is taking a break from that until he "sorts himself out". Needless to say I think the point of him going to counselling is because he can't sort himself out on his own!

He doesn't have any friends to speak of and can't get to the GP because even if he could find the motivation and organise himself to ask for an appointment, you have to ring the surgery at 8.30am often up to 200 times (I wish I was exaggerating) and of course he's never awake then. I also don't know if he'd be able to see there could be a problem requiring help from a doctor.

I don't know what to do with him anymore. He doesn't seem to see what the big deal is, yet at the same time hates that he misses out on life and this sends him deeper into a spiral. He's 22 so I can't fix it for him, but it's so hard seeing him waste his life and it's affecting the mood of others in the house.

I'm not going to kick him out, he's my son and he has no friends and nowhere to go.

I have tried talking to him, have told him repeatedly that I'm here if he ever wants to talk, have also told him it wouldn't be good for anyone's mental or physical health to have the lifestyle he does. I have at times grown impatient with him - I'm human! - and nagged/read the riot act. A lot of the time he just sits in silence and listens but doesn't say anything in response. So @Janiie I have tried my best to have open conversations, I'm certainly not just hoping it's all going to resolve on its own. But a conversation needs to be a two way thing, and he's 22 and 6'2. He needs to want to change or get better himself because I physically can't make him.

He pays his own phone bill from his savings (from past student maintenance loans. birthday/Christmas money). Turning the wifi off wouldn't help as he'd just use his data on his phone. He's always been frugal and doesn't go out much as he is introverted and also lacks friends to go out with. He buys his clothes but I pay for his food, electricity etc.

If he wants to change then I'd suggest getting him some melatonin to take half an hour before an agreed bedtime, and a SAD light timed to come on at the time he should wake up. And go in and fling open the curtains and windows. Getting a lot of daylight first thing when you wake up is supposed to help with your sleep patterns. And, give him chores to do to make sure he has to get up.

So do you think he is depressed has his behaviour deteriorated or do you think he is just relatively happy being an introvert without a job? As others have said nightshift work would suit him. Has anything triggered this?

He can keep on doing this because there is no hardship for him, l would not tolerate it.

You could try my dads approach and remove my curtains when I attempted to do this 😅 it resulted in a spectacular tantrum from me at 21 but he held firm and threatened to further remove my door if I wasn’t up and ready for the day by 9am each day. I hated him at the time but it absolutely worked and who knows what would have happened if he’d tried a softer approach (very likely it would have been ignored).

You need to start somewhere, anywhere to get him moving forwards. There’s clearly something going on for him to be this stuck. Personally I’d be making appointments with the GP, counsellor, careers adviser, voluntary staff coordinator etc and just ensure they are last thing in the day so he’s awake. Also ensure he his well prepped with what to say, make clear bullet points.

has he ever been assessed for autism? Have a look on the national autistic website for autistic traits. There maybe helpful strategies online also.

I was exactly like this as a teenager and young adult, was labelled lazy and a waster.

Turns out I have a circadian rhythm disorder and bipolar disorder which causes deep depressions.

I’m 39 now and still struggle with my sleep. I’ve recently managed to get an honours degree and have a baby and a semi functioning life due to meds helping my mood and my sleep. But I still have days where I really struggle to get out of bed and I’m possibly not the most reliable person to employ.

And it doesn’t matter about keeping a routine or good sleep hygiene, if it’s a sleep disorder or a mental illness that causes sleep dysfunction then no amount of threats or cajoling will work, it’ll probably just make him feel terrible.

I wonder if you're son is suffering from depression??? Could camhs or counseling help? They can do counseling over the telephone if he can't make it in person. Good luck x

He needs to stay awake for a day and reset his sleep pattern. Up, showered and doing his specified jobs around the house. The more you sleep, the more you want to sleep and daytime appointments become a huge anxiety-inducing ordeal. I can easily get into this space myself. I do think I have ASD and am prone to depression but I’m convinced anyone could get themselves into this state. It becomes a cycle that’s harder to get out of the more it’s enabled.

One way to reset his body clock is for him to stay awake all night and then all day till mid evening.

Hi op, I was like your son. I fell into depression at university. Think it was a build up of things in my childhood, coupled with this big fear of having to be an adult and get a job. Had no idea what I wanted to do.
I used to sleep like he does, stay up all night. It’s really unhealthy as he’s getting no natural sunlight, which will make depression worse.
My mum didn’t know what was wrong with me ( old Skool and no idea about mh issues) she just shouted and made me feel more alienated.
The only person who can make the change is him. It will feel like climbing Mount Everest but he needs to get up and do something. I forced myself to get outside and do anything, even a walk.
He must be feeling so defeated, no friends, back at home, not completed his qualifications, messed up sleep. He needs to want to change

Getting help via a GP is impossible, your talking months and then you might only get seen once or twice, pointed towards an online system.

I know someone like this, he is 25, i ve tried to get him to join the services as tbh, he is now unemployable, even though he is extremely clever, he just has zero self belief or confidence.

"Get a job?" Doing what? folk like these have no work skills, they need nurturing from the ground up but unless they want to change, they never will be of any use to any employer looking to turn a profit, thats why i suggested the 'services.... one that offers a trade & has time to invest.

Chuck them out? to live on the streets? the councils wont house them, they have no houses spare.

Very naive of you @Janiie

trigger warning

OP I’m not trying to be dramatic but I would worry about untreated depression which of course in young men in particular can end in tragedy, i.e suicide. It’s a worst case scenario but that would be my primary concern if this goes on for too long.

My brother and my BIL both went through difficult phases at this time in their lives. It’s a really difficult age. I don’t agree with PPs who are suggesting it’s just laziness and to be harsher with him.

I agree with PPs and would see if you can make the GP appointment for him. Offer to go with him and be his advocate.

I think some tough love is needed, to drag him out of this rut. Sit him down and ask if he has ideas for small steps to improve his situation. Have your own ideas in case he can't come up with any, e.g. a walk every evening, or weekly counselling. Start small and achievable, and be encouraging. But work out what priveleges you'll remove if he doesn't follow that agreement. If you don't want to kick him out, can you remove his phone as a consequence? At least during the night? Internet addiction is another way people avoid engaging in real life.

It is a shame because the world is set up for people to do everything during the day but it's not what works for a lot of people. Even after being awake all day, I suddenly become energised and feel more awake than I did all day at night! It was the same at school... Spend all day at school, then still can't sleep at bed time, end up doing my best essays at night time etc. My mum is the same, seems to run in the family.

Could he do night work? I don't think there is an easy way to get qualifications at night though.

It could be depression... It could be a sleep disorder...

GPs hand out meds fairly easily, if he needs anti depressants he'll get them and won't need to wait months.

There are plenty of jobs that you don't need qualifications for! Bar jobs, restaurant work, retail, factory jobs.

I of course wouldn't chuck out kids with say, mh problems but if he is just happy to stay up all night, sleep all day and not contribute to the household in any way then perhaps a shock of suggesting he house share (doesn't have to be with friends but that is often how friends are made) may be the motivation he needs to actually think how he can improve his situation.

I'm most definitely not naive, just like many have faced a lot of challenges and know that are always ways to improve a status quo.

👏 yes, LiveandSmile 👏 pretty much what I was thinking reading this.

If it is depression, is it because something has triggered it? I.e stress/past issues coming up etc. Is it environmental depression? Is he just not happy with his life and where he is etc? Maybe he has nothing to talk about, he just physically feels empty. I definitely wouldn't do any of the hard ball approaches. I know when I've had my depressed times, I genuinely just don't care about anything. Take it all away, doesn't bother me. The only thing that helps me to pull myself out of it, is myself. Being sick of being depressed. Being sick and bored of the same shitty cycle.

I'm thinking I'd likely not mention he should do this, or that. But say how it affects you. That you're worried, what will his life be like in a year, Will he be happy if nothing has changed? If he saw you living this lifestyle, would it worry him, that's how it feels for you etc.

Does he read? There's a book called The Wall by Ant Middleton, have a look on Amazon for a preview. It's basically for people who are just 'stuck' and can't find any direction. I only got a few pages in and it gave me a bit of get up and go. Might be worth having a look. If he's keen on self improvement (or eventually wants to), Paul McKenna books are fab too. There's ones for Confidence and Change your life in 7 days etc. I know it's hard living with someone like that (I've been him) but only he can pull himself out of it when he's ready. The best you can do is offer support, guidance when he's willing, even if he doesn't speak back to you, doesn't mean he's not taking bits in.

Actually I would suggest he does something. Anything he can do as a hobby. A reason to get out of the house for an hour a week. Martial arts class/archery/anything that's local. I wouldn't expect him to jump at it, but knowing there's options (a way to meet friends/speak to others/have a low level commitment to something) might linger in the back of his mind for when he does have a little spark back in him ❤️

Good post @Sasha07 💛

He needs tough love. If you let this go on. He will still be living with you at 40 sleeping through the day and no job.

Who is paying for his phone? I hope it's not you! Don't do his laundry. Don't fix him any food.

It’s not likely to be laziness with him completed 4 years of uni.

To me it’s more likely to be a combination of depression and undiagnosed autism. It sounds like he’s struggled all along and just couldn’t keep going. He’s probably hugely disappointed in himself amongst other emotions.

OP be kind and supportive to him and see if you can get him to see a doctor or therapist.
Suggest taking vitamin D as low levels affect sleep and mood and if he’s not getting much sunlight it could be lacking.

People with autism face a huge upward struggle in life and it’s plain to see in people’s posts here.
There’s a total disregard for feelings or potential for any diagnosed mental health issue.Not much empathy from mumsnetters which is a reflection of societal views on general.
Its why the nhs MH service is so appalling.

Good post from @Sasha07

This.

I'd give him a week or two of rest, and then build a routine around him that requires him to get up and washed and dressed.

Turn the wifi off at night. Hoover his room (with him in it) in the morning, Fling the windows open. Insist on changing the sheets 🙂 Arrange that Mondays and Thursdays are his night to cook for everyone. Expect him to contribute to the household income, so at the very least he needs to sort his own benefits.

Be supportive but don't indulge him.

You could be describing my son in his last year of 6th form. In his case it was depression. He quite often stayed in bed for 24 hours and then was uo for 24 hours. He didn't eat properly, It was awful.

He didn't sit his A levels. I was convinced he was unemployable. We gave him.an ultimatum about doing some voluntary work - even one afternoon a week - in order to get him into a routine. However, he actually went and got himself a paid evening job and started to get into a routine. After a while he was in a good place and was able to move into a 9 - 5 office job.

When he was at his worst it was. a horrible period and I alternated between feeling very sorry for him and being furious that he wouldn't take responsibility or try to help himself.

Have you suggested to your son that he see a GP for depression? I hope it works out, I really feel for you.

I had a friend who's brother was like this, he gave up a good job in his early 20s, moved back home and slept all day, gamed all night. The only time he left the house was to go to the cinema.

He's now in his 50s, still living at home with his parents, hasn't had a job for 30 years. He still sleeps all day and is on his computer all night. He's never had a relationship even.

Please don't think your DS will just grow out of this phase.